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Date/Time: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 12:34:45 +0000



TT order routing

Support Request:
[2019-08-02 16:30:30]
AKR - Posts: 409
entered an order now 3-4 times and each time it is there and then disappears after a minute or less or so.
checked with AMP and they referred me to you (sierra order routing). No message on trade service log or message log.
[2019-08-02 17:18:32]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
We will check on this. In Global Settings >> Data/Trade Service Settings, what is the Primary Server set to?
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
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If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2019-08-02 17:34:05]
AKR - Posts: 409
switched off already, but quite sure the one you recommend on the instruction site. usa2 I think?
[2019-08-02 17:45:46]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
We see the problem. It is due to an issue related to TT execution reports which is affecting the status of other orders because some reports are looking like part of an order download response.

The procedure in this case is to stop trading and contact your broker and make sure your working orders are canceled and to check your positions and they are as you expect and to take any action on any position or orders that you require.



Update: The issue has been resolved.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
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If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-02 19:53:55
[2019-08-02 18:05:46]
4trading - Posts: 20
I also had problems with my limit order targets disappearing and my OCO stop not getting cancelled when my target got hit just before lunch. I believe that was the first time for the OCO not cancelling the other portion.

The message showed that I was hooked up to SCServer4, configured as my 2nd back-up. It showed the same yesterday.

I also got stuck in a trade for a while. i signed into and out of SC on 2 different PCs. It finally got me out, minus my nice profit run-up.

I have shot down the platform for today.
image8-2-19 Server set-up.PNG / V - Attached On 2019-08-02 18:01:11 UTC - Size: 42.7 KB - 48 views
Attachment Deleted.
[2019-08-02 18:11:55]
4trading - Posts: 20
It also shows open orders I am unable to cancel!

I had to call AMP to get the orders cancelled, which they did. Thanks AMP.

Edit: The orders showed up on a secondary laptop, not my main PC. I shut down my main PC with no reminder "You have open orders."

In fact, I saw no open orders.

I will try to check your website first thing for updated versions of the program. I look forward to a fix of this problem, which I assume you will get done.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-03 12:48:28
[2019-08-02 18:52:19]
AKR - Posts: 409
phu so now if I dont know if I have orders on or not, that is a real issue.
I told you amp told me to contact you. they told me they dont see any orders on Rithmic ... obviously as not routing there anymore. seems they dont even see I am on TT.
[2019-08-02 18:53:38]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
In regards to post #6. We will look into that.

In regards to post #7, we are checking now to see if you have any working orders. We will post here in a moment.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
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If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-02 19:03:20
[2019-08-02 18:54:48]
4trading - Posts: 20
I described my SC-TT set-up to AMP in one sentence. AMP could see my open orders and cancelled them promptly. Only a couple of seconds for the trade desk to answer the phone. Great service!
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-02 19:01:09
[2019-08-02 18:57:22]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
In regards to post #7, you do not have any working orders that we see at this moment.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-02 18:57:28
[2019-08-02 19:15:55]
AKR - Posts: 409
to #9 - good for you it seems it is up to whom you talk/chat to.
I am in a chat with them for more than 5 minutes already and still waiting for an answer, as they still checking.
but rely on post #10....
[2019-08-02 19:24:55]
AKR - Posts: 409
guys - finally amp told me I was long with all the orders that had disappeared ... not very amusing.
luckily got out at profit, but that happening again I am back to CQG.
[2019-08-02 19:27:37]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
In regards to post #12, we did not state what your current position quantity was at post #10. We were just looking at the open//working orders. We apologize for the confusion. We consider an open//working order, different than a Position.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
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If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2019-08-02 19:30:17]
AKR - Posts: 409
yes, I know.
I was referring with "happening again" not to your comment (I know you meant what you wrote = working orders), but I meant the fact that orders disappear but still are there, get filled and I dont even see that. That never happened to me last 5 years and I had been originally on TT with AMP.
[2019-08-02 19:49:36]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
We did verify now the Position quantity was being correctly reported. There were position quantity updates at: 12:59:20 and 15:19:35 for your account. These are US Eastern times.

There certainly was a working order reporting issue, and we have fixed that issue. Once we go over it further in depth we will provide further details.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-02 19:51:14
[2019-08-02 20:19:06]
4trading - Posts: 20
AKR [Direct Messages] - Posts: 396
yes, I know.
I was referring with "happening again" not to your comment (I know you meant what you wrote = working orders), but I meant the fact that orders disappear but still are there, get filled and I dont even see that. That never happened to me last 5 years and I had been originally on TT with AMP.
Me too. I got filled on one of those invisible orders while I was at lunch. Mine was not profitable however, unlike yours. The last time this kind of thing happened to me was 2009, if I recall correctly. But that time, I lucked out.
[2019-08-02 21:11:13]
jaxscott1 - Posts: 20
I also had a disastrous day with this TT connection. Invisible orders, etc. I had two contracts that appeared out of "thin air" without a stop loss - huge loss, ugh. It's back to CQG for me.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-02 23:29:31
[2019-08-02 23:45:27]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
When you say appeared out of thin air, you must be referring to orders that you previously submitted. The problem would have led to pending child target and stop orders from becoming active unless those child orders became active before the parent status was marked as inactive.

Also, if there is an order that you submitted that you do not see working and you did not cancel it is very important that you contact your broker about them and have them cancel them and also verify your positions.

We are going to get in touch with TT about this because this was not just an issue on the Sierra Chart side with the status of orders. There was an issue on the TT side that which triggered this, and they were also reporting order timeouts.

We have seen a similar issue before, where TT just simply continues to report the status of an order inaccurately until we establish a new session and do a mass order status request. Now this issue was of no consequence at the time but it should not be happening either. This actually is an open ticket with TT already. We are not here to place blame on TT, but if TT supports a request ID on a mass order status request, and they solve the issue we describe at the beginning of this paragraph, this problem would never have happened.

Although, there was some order handling issues that did occur on the TT side today. That is not entirely clear what the problem was . We are more focusing on the order status issue.

During the issue, Positions were correctly reported. You can see the Position quantity on the Trade Window:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?page=doc/TradeWindow.html#CurrentTradePosition


And also here:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?page=doc/TradeStatusWindows.html#PositionsWindow


Someone also asked us about whether there was a delay with order transmission. No. There were never any order delays with the order routing. That is still ultrafast at below 1 ms. There was not anything unusual with the server load or anything like that. The issue today was purely an order status issue.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-03 00:06:46
[2019-08-03 00:12:43]
jaxscott1 - Posts: 20
When a child stop loss to an order I made hours before - appeared as pending, was unable to be cancelled in SC, and had to be confirmed as not a working order (I called on two separate occasions to AMP) - makes it’s way through whatever morass TT had a problem with today and places itself on my chart when I am no longer at the screen to catch it... it does lend itself to being described as “appearing out of thin air”. I am not trying to place blame here. I am sure this is hugely frustrating to SC as it is to me. But it cost me $400. So please excuse my slight pique. Thank you for helping to get to the bottom of this.
[2019-08-03 00:16:46]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
When a child stop loss to an order I made hours before - appeared as pending, was unable to be cancelled in SC, and had to be confirmed as not a working order (I called on two separate occasions to AMP) - makes it’s way through whatever morass TT had a problem with today and places itself on my chart when I am no longer at the screen to catch it... it does lend itself to being described as “appearing out of thin air”.
We would like to call you and then look into this on your side. We want to understand exactly what happened.

We understand there was a serious issue. We are going to detail it and report what we find. We have absolutely no problem with the complaints here.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2019-08-03 23:22:08]
4trading - Posts: 20
Here is another problem trade. I was up a good amount and attempted to exit multiple times with several different SC installs on 2 separate PCs. It seemed like I was trapped in the trade.

This has happened about 5 times or so the past month.

I whited out other trades, but SC shows that I never exited the two CL entries.

Fortunately my statement shows I made a profit on this trade, although it was only less than 1/2 of when I attempted to exit.

Edit: Wow! That is weird. Now the exits are showing up in SC.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-03 23:50:11
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[2019-08-04 00:45:59]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
In regards to post #21, this is not completely clear. We need precise details.


. I was up a good amount and attempted to exit multiple times with several different SC installs on 2 separate PCs. It seemed like I was trapped in the trade.
Is this referring to 2019-08-02 where there was a problem with the order status reporting and orders disappearing? (Which were actually still working and the position quantity was still updating properly)

This has happened about 5 times or so the past month.
Are you referring to subsequent fill reporting within the Trade Activity Log or some incident during order entry? We would highly doubt there would've been any problem during order entry. We have never had any reports of an issue other than on 2019-08-02.

The problem on Friday is well understood and we are preparing detailed information for users and also point out to TT the particular issue which needs to get resolved on their side which triggered the problem and greatly exacerbated it, and going to issue additional usage time to the affected users.

There were missing fills, with the TT order routing on 2019-08-02 during the issue which occurred for about 2-3 hours. We are going at those added over this weekend assuming no technical complications.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-04 07:39:47
[2019-08-04 14:31:09]
4trading - Posts: 20
I am pretty new with SC-TT (1+ month), but mostly it has been exceptional for executions, compared to other platforms I have used.

It is possibly a separate problem, but I did not document which days it happened, or which versions of SC.

None of the incidents were as bad as Friday however.

So let's put it on hold until next time it happens. I will make sure to document it and send in the log for that day.

I appreciate your diligent work. Thanks.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-04 14:43:05
[2019-08-04 23:27:22]
jaxscott1 - Posts: 20
I will say as one of the traders affected negatively by this TT trade route situation on Friday, that Sierra Chart techs have been communicative and forthcoming about the investigative work that they are doing and how they are correcting the code to avoid future occurrences. I have always known that they are committed to the quality of their software and data. The detective work going into this situation was thorough and straightforward. I can't imagine it was a terribly fun thing to do this weekend. Cheers!
[2019-08-05 00:06:05]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
Here is the detailed report of what happened:
https://www.sierrachart.com/SupportBoard.php?ThreadID=44398#P187252
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2019-08-05 00:13:54]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
In regards to post #21, make sure you have set the starting Date-Time in the Trade Activity Log to around the time of the fill which starts a new Position. Here is more information:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?page=doc/TradeActivityLog.php#UnderstandingAndSettingTheStartDateTimeForATradesList

We also explain more about this here:
https://videos.sierrachart.com/Sierra_Chart_Order_Fill_Matching_and_Trade_Statistics.webm


There may have been missing fills from Friday and those have now been restored and we detail what to do about that here:

https://www.sierrachart.com/SupportBoard.php?ThreadID=44398 (Near the bottom)
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-05 00:27:06
[2019-08-05 13:57:57]
4trading - Posts: 20
I updated to the latest SC (1969) this morning before the open.

SC Global Profit/Loss management has (falsely) locked me out for the day due to surpassing my daily stop loss. Yet I have not traded since the Friday problems. And my Friday PnL close should not have triggered the daily stop loss.

I called AMP and they said I have zero trades and zero pending orders showing for this weekend or this morning.

Before I upgraded, SC falsely showed 6 long ghost orders pending on NQ with status as ERROR. That was while NQ was selling off, so I would only BuyToCover a short position, not go long.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-05 14:38:38
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[2019-08-05 15:33:04]
4trading - Posts: 20
Here is a more descriptive picture of the situation.

It shows my Daily TT PnL = 0.

Plus I am have exceeded my fairly high daily stop loss.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-05 15:34:38
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[2019-08-05 15:34:04]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
Before I upgraded, SC falsely showed 6 long ghost orders pending on NQ with status as ERROR.
We need more details about this. Did you see these in the Trade >> Trade Orders and Positions >> Orders tab, or where? We do not see any orders for your account. So it does not make sense you would see any orders listed there. And if the status is Error those orders would not be working. So this is not making sense to us.


SC Global Profit/Loss management has (falsely) locked me out for the day due to surpassing my daily stop loss. Yet I have not traded since the Friday problems. And my Friday PnL close should not have triggered the daily stop loss.
If there are any missing order fills which would have happened on Friday, then the Daily Profit/Loss would not be accurate. Refer to this section here:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?page=doc/TradeActivityLog.php#TradeStatisticsForChartsTab_SolvingInaccurateTradeStatisticsForChartsFieldValues

You will need to adjust the Order Fills Start Date-Time in the charts or Trading DOMs to today.

We did recover the missing fills but based on another report, apparently they were not all received. So we have to see if we can get them and manually insert them from the TT REST API.

We need to look into why though it would have reported that message. But we need further details. We need the line from the Trade Activity Log that shows that particular message you show here:
https://www.sierrachart.com/Download.php?Folder=SupportBoard&download=30469


Instructions:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?page=doc/TradeActivityLog.php#TradeActivityLogToSupport

You can privately send that to us through an account support ticket:
https://www.sierrachart.com/usercp.php?page=SupportTickets


We also provide plenty of warnings about the Global Profit/Loss Management feature:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?page=doc/GlobalProfitLossManagement.php

This feature is not necessarily completely safe, even when using the TT based order routing. But anyway in this case no order was actually submitted because it does have a final safety check to ensure there is a position. But having said that, the position reporting on the TT based order routing has a dependency on TT. If they have any issues in regards to that, there can be a problem.

And this is no different than when using other services. There can always be some risk of a position quantity incorrectly reported. And for the record, we did not see any position quantity reporting issues on Friday and we are aware of none today.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-05 15:37:09
[2019-08-05 17:01:01]
CB12310 - Posts: 86
Hi SCE, would live sim/paper account testing for some period of days/weeks accurately identify such outlier events as this, i.e. order/position mismatches?

As a side note, I know that, as a past customer of another trading platform, when any sort of issue arose in the software that prevented me from closing a position, I had to call the broker and do it verbally. Then, of course, the trading platform still showed an open position, although there was none. That kind of scenario seems unavoidable given the nature of 'separation of concerns' but I certainly want to decide on logic to handle situations like those already discussed in this thread.
[2019-08-06 06:27:28]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
Hi SCE, would live sim/paper account testing for some period of days/weeks accurately identify such outlier events as this, i.e. order/position mismatches?
Not really because there was a set of several circumstances which led to this. Which likely would not have been encountered even with extensive testing.

As a side note, I know that, as a past customer of another trading platform, when any sort of issue arose in the software that prevented me from closing a position, I had to call the broker and do it verbally. Then, of course, the trading platform still showed an open position, although there was none
With the incident on August 2, 2019 this was not the case. The position reporting continued to be accurate. Even when the broker put a trade through, the position quantity immediately updated with the Sierra Chart order routing service. We observed that.

There is another thing that we discovered, not anything which was a problem, but if there is an unsolicited fill that comes through TT FIX for example from the TT platform, and there is no associated order for it already existing, that will be properly processed as a fill and update the Position quantity. The change to support this has not yet been released, but should be in about a week or so.

And furthermore, with the change that we have made related to never marking orders inactive or clearing them, unless the user does, and with our upcoming web-based trading, and with multiple connections into TT, hopefully you should not have to rely upon your broker. We have high confidence going forward, so long as TT themselves are able to route orders through.


Update 2019-08-13: Taking note of "so long as TT themselves are able to route orders through." from above. Well today obviously there was that problem.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-14 02:39:46
[2019-08-13 13:40:33]
AKR - Posts: 409
RIGHT NOW AGAIN working orders entered into sierra disappeared few secs later !!
[2019-08-13 13:44:30]
rainbowtrader - Posts: 45
TT Route not available this morning. Any known problems today???
[2019-08-13 14:02:55]
rainbowtrader - Posts: 45
It is working now
[2019-08-13 14:10:14]
AKR - Posts: 409
some years ago I was on TTnet. That was the cheapest feed/routing and was extremely stable.
that is not the TT you are using, right?

could not cancel an order today earlier, too.
[2019-08-13 14:25:37]
AKR - Posts: 409
issues again, just right now entered order and it was cancelled immediatelly.
I ll look at this till end of month and then back CQG
[2019-08-13 14:31:44]
rainbowtrader - Posts: 45
Problems here again -> can't cancel order
[2019-08-13 14:39:25]
4trading - Posts: 20
Same here. Price went through my limit order several times without filling, so I attempted to Cancel.

AMP says they cannot cancel because it is FIX. They say Sierra Chart must cancel. (Although they cancelled it last time.)

Order doesn't appear to have filled, nor can I cancel it. I cannot move the order either.

Status = PENDING CANCEL

It is in limbo.

This is really not acceptable guys.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 15:05:04
[2019-08-13 15:05:47]
AKR - Posts: 409
AMP now telling me they dont see if I have orders or not or working orders and SIERRA needs to tell me.
[2019-08-13 15:09:00]
4trading - Posts: 20
AKR [Direct Messages] - Posts: 407
AMP now telling me they dont see if I have orders or not or working orders and SIERRA needs to tell me.
Same here. We are in the dark.

Cancel worked on my target/stop, but not the parent order.

I have attempted to cancel with different SC versions, it doesn't help.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 15:16:05
[2019-08-13 15:10:02]
rainbowtrader - Posts: 45
Same here. This is scary!
[2019-08-13 15:19:26]
4trading - Posts: 20
I am set up to hedge. But I only want to use that IF I know I got filled and cannot close out.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 15:21:04
[2019-08-13 15:32:37]
User379468 - Posts: 128
I am set up to hedge. But I only want to use that IF I know I got filled and cannot close out.

Trade desk at Amp can't confirm your position or order status or cancel a problem order? That is crazy.

Can you guys bypass SC and access TT directly somehow to cancel?

I am surprised no response from SC on this after a few hours. If it really needs to be SC who cancels, there should be phone access.

Hope you all get cleared/square without losses.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 15:34:33
[2019-08-13 16:29:06]
4trading - Posts: 20
Another guy at the trade desk did confirm no positions and no losses for my account. It really depends on which guy you get.

TT Status page shows it is up and running and AMP confirmed this.

TT was down and recommended calling the CME for order status.

https://status.trade.tt/#/

The order is still showing in SC however.

Hopefully all will come out OK today. That is twice TT has been down recently. It is not fun. :(
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 16:43:32
[2019-08-13 16:56:16]
User379468 - Posts: 128
Another guy at the trade desk did confirm no positions and no losses for my account. It really depends on which guy you get.

That's a really bad sign for being at Amp in a situation like this. Thanks for sharing this.

TT Status page shows it is up and running and AMP confirmed this. TT was down and recommended calling the CME for order status.

Were you able to call CME for order status?
[2019-08-13 17:04:04]
4trading - Posts: 20
I did not call CME since AMP said I had nothing in the pipeline. TT/CME went down right after the cash open. I will keep an eye on my Pending Cancel that still shows up in SC however. It should cancel itself after 3:15pm CT today.

Obviously I am not attempting further trading with SC-TT today. It appears there is a problem between TT and SC which was not solved after last weeks problem, since TT is back up and running currently- but my order still shows as pending in SC.

I still like the SC platform so far (1.5 months) however.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 17:22:38
[2019-08-13 17:33:51]
jaxscott1 - Posts: 20
This happened to me on Aug 2. I switched back to CQG after that. If this happened to me again and I had to miss that rocket ship after the cash open, I’d be freakin breaking walls...
[2019-08-13 18:01:47]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
We apologize for the delay. Obviously we cannot rely on TT here.

We are working on our own order routing to the CME.

The problem from August 2 was resolved.

TT did report to us, that they did have a problem with order routing to the CME today August 13 and it is now resolved.

If you are seeing an order disappear, the cause for that could not be the same cause as August 2 because that was resolved. We have to look into why you would have seen the case today. (Update: Cause determined and explained below. Was a TT issue.)

And also we have to see why a pending cancel order that you then cancel again is not getting canceled. (Update: Cause determined and explained below. We implemented a patch for this. The orders were not actually working any longer.)

We also have no ability to cancel orders. The system is designed in such a way, that we are passing orders through to TT, and cannot directly access your trading account.

But that does not matter because your clearing firm has access to your account through the TT order panel they have access to.

Once again we cannot rely on TT. We understand how everything works, and this is definitively a TT problem here. Nothing could have gone wrong on the Sierra Chart side related to any of this.

The problem of August 2 was very simple. We explained that in detail in another thread which we linked to above. It was something very simple related to mass order status processing which was corrected and would never happen again and it could not have anything to do with the issue today. That was done and over with. It was also something that was made much worse, by TT continuing to provide an invalid status for orders.
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-14 03:06:44
[2019-08-13 18:07:21]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
And as we read through this thread you are recognizing it was a TT issue.
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[2019-08-13 18:12:06]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
We will go through the log files but in general, the reason why you would see an order that you submit disappear after about a minute and half is if it goes into an "order Sent" state and then there is no response from TT on that, then it is considered timed out and then is just marked as internally canceled. If TT were to later acknowledge it, you would then see it appear again.

We are doing a mass order status refresh across the servers now.

If any of you want to move over to CQG just simply contact your broker about this. They will take care of it. There is nothing we need to do on our side.

We are hugely disappointed in TT today, .
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 18:15:48
[2019-08-13 18:23:03]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
This is a monumental screwup on the part of TT. We are not putting anyone else on this service. TT cannot be trusted here.

Our new planned order routing to the CME is going to be direct and straight through to the exchange with redundancy.

If any of you were using TT directly through TT FIX within Sierra Chart on the client side, the same problems would occur. None of this has anything to do with the centralized order routing. Centralized order routing, makes things more reliable and redundant. This is also true the same situation August 2.
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 18:25:56
[2019-08-13 18:33:09]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
You know what is so sad about the situation, is one thing we were doing with this service, is we were working on latency reduction even further. We were able to reduce it another 20 µs for order routing. These are microseconds and not milliseconds.

We have to run a test again but roughly order routing through our systems should be below 50 µs.

So we were able to take that down even further.

But all of this is irrelevant when there is a of major issue like this on the TT side. Any type of report of a lag with executions or reporting, would be on the TT side. We have consistently never encountered a problem like that through our own systems.
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[2019-08-13 18:58:19]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
Another thing we want to point out, is everything is designed in such a way with this order routing service, that there is not a need for us to take any emergency action. We did reset the FIX sessions to TT about 30 minutes ago, but that should never never have been necessary. Whether that helped with anything or not, we really cannot obviously tell when we do that. You might have seen orders appear which were not after the reset. But if you did, that would actually be quite concerning because TT never sent the status of those orders through on the prior connection.

And if we did that early on during the duration of this problem, based upon what we are seeing, that would not have mattered. It would make more sense for us to have done that after the TT got the CME connectivity backup.

It appears there is a problem between TT and SC which was not solved after last weeks problem,
No, this is not the case. The connectivity between TT and Sierra Chart, is stable and totally reliable. The issues were all squarely on the TT side.
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 19:04:24
[2019-08-13 19:56:33]
4trading - Posts: 20
I am still showing the Pending Cancel Order from this morning. It seems like that should have updated by now with TT back up and running - unless their server "lost" some orders.

But... I saw price action this morning go through it a couple of times or so. If it were really still live, it should have filled.

And AMP said there are no pending orders. Hopefully, they are correct.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 20:02:53
[2019-08-13 20:02:24]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
We will check on that for you now. Can you please right now, cancel it again so we can see what TT is returning in response.

There may be another text rejection we have to check for in order to mark it as canceled.
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 20:02:43
[2019-08-13 20:04:12]
4trading - Posts: 20
I pressed CANCEL and "X" several times, as well as CANCEL ALL in the Orders and Positions window.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 20:05:43
[2019-08-13 20:17:33]
User753428 - Posts: 56
completely ridiculous by TT

they just released an update here: https://www.tradingtechnologies.com/blog/2019/08/13/details-of-the-tt-outage-on-august-13-2019/
[2019-08-13 20:38:53]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
In regards to post 56, we are working on the issue. We see what the problem is.

On our server side if the order is in a Pending Cancel state, any additional cancel requests are queued. At the time that was implemented, that was a judgment made that made sense at the time, but we are removing that now because clearly you need to be able to get unrestricted cancels through at any moment you want.

Just give us about 15 minutes to get that queueing removed and we will call you again.
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[2019-08-13 20:51:55]
4trading - Posts: 20
Thanks for the assistance on clearing that order SC. As I said above, I still like the SC platform. It handles volume spikes like this morning way better than TradeStation IMO.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-13 20:53:21
[2019-08-13 20:59:52]
User379468 - Posts: 128
To SC, curious, for considering SC's Order Routing services, whether this or future, why the near 7 hour delay through most of the entire CME session to check these things for these traders who were uncertain until now if they may have or get a phantom position/fill from these problem orders?
[2019-08-13 22:01:16]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
It was actually a 4 hour and 20 minutes delay responding to this thread and that is not good and this is being internally discussed. There is no excuse here. But this thread was not brought to the attention of senior engineering promptly. We will come back with an answer on this.

There were other TT order routing issue threads both on this Support Board and through support tickets that were being promptly taken care of but really based upon what we were seeing, those looked like issues isolated to individual accounts and account set up issues. We did not recognize them as rejections due to a failure of TT order routing for all users (to be clear, the issue was on the TT side not ours). We do not always know the meaning of particular TT order rejection messages.

for these traders who were uncertain until now if they may have or get a phantom position/fill from these problem orders?

If there is any uncertainty about the status of an order you must always contact your broker. While we do have the ability to check, we can take no action on the order (for obvious security reasons), and our focus is more on the lower level technical details of issues. This is explained here:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?page=doc/support.html#TradingSupport

The whole reason our web-based trading panel has not yet been released, is we need to make sure the security level is at a point, where Only you as an authorized user can access it.


First and foremost, our responsibility is to ensure the connectivity is up which it was (We do get an alert within a minute when connectivity goes down). We only encountered that scenario once with TT, and that was dealt with and there was no incident subsequent to that. And ensure the orders are going through efficiently and responses are processed. Everything was working correctly.

We will be going through some of the issues, and see if there is anything that was not handled right.

Also regarding connectivity, even if a connection goes down, there are two other servers available. And TT themselves maintain backup servers. But none of this was relevant for a scenario like this. Obviously the reliability is going to be dependent upon the weakest link.
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-14 04:31:11
[2019-08-14 02:28:48]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
RIGHT NOW AGAIN working orders entered into sierra disappeared few secs later !!
We looked into this for your account. This is not the same issue as last time. What we see is order rejections like this:

Order  2019-08-13 10:24:17.363  MESU19_FUT_CME  TT order update (Rejected). Text: Route is currently unavailable for Route::acct_id=**,Route::market_id=7  52844  Error  cdfa41cb-4e6b-4faa-8c8c-eec4113d3520  Limit  2  Buy  

This is what would cause an order to momentarily appear and be cleared from the chart or Trading DOM because of the rejection.

This is related to this issue here:
https://www.tradingtechnologies.com/blog/2019/08/13/details-of-the-tt-outage-on-august-13-2019

We are also going to require users to update to the current version of 1971. We corrected a potential problem which occurred on the server August 2 which appears to also be affecting the DTC service client in Sierra Chart but that has to be examined more carefully by us.

We did not mention an update previously because we were viewing this as a server-side issue only at the time and did not consider how this could also occur on the client side under this kind of order routing configuration.

But this is not related to today's event. This was squarely a TT issue today but a side effect could have been that if an order was in a Pending Cancel/Modify state, for an extended time it could cause other orders to no longer display within a chart because they were internally marked with an inactive state. This has still yet to be confirmed by us, but if you are running 1969 or higher than you would not have been affected by this potential issue.

You can also force a refresh of orders at any time with Trade >> Refresh Trade Data From Service.
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-14 02:33:52
[2019-08-14 02:42:01]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
some years ago I was on TTnet. That was the cheapest feed/routing and was extremely stable.
that is not the TT you are using, right?
What we are using is written about here:
https://www.tradingtechnologies.com/blog/2017/02/15/bringing-sexy-back-to-fix/

And FIX set up is as easy as they say.
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-14 02:42:50
[2019-08-14 02:53:47]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
We now have gone over all of the posts in this thread.

I am surprised no response from SC on this after a few hours. If it really needs to be SC who cancels, there should be phone access.

Hope you all get cleared/square without losses.

We just want to make one thing very clear here. We cannot trade or control your trading account. That is all part of the security design around this order routing connection which we hope you would agree should be in place. If we can control your account, that creates a security risk if someone not authorized can access the account.

Your broker can see your working orders though through the TT Monitor page they have access to. And they can also submit orders. If they do not see them, and you see an order in a Pending Cancel state, then it really should not be working. But with today's incident the exchange should have been called. Your broker would have to handle that for you.

So in essence, there was never any real danger here where your broker could not access a real working order and you are relying on us to cancel it for you. That was not what was actually happening. You were seeing orders in a Pending Cancel state due to the problem that TT had and cannot cause them to become fully canceled even though they were never working.

If we had responded earlier, we do not see how it would have helped because we would tell you try canceling the order again and also contact your broker to verify the orders.

Now what we ended up realizing after working with one of you on the phone, is that you could not cause an order to become fully canceled that was in a Pending Cancel state because the order cancellation was getting queued waiting for the first one to complete. We put in a workaround after the close.

Effectively you were just seeing lingering nonworking orders.

It is unlikely we would have done anything until after the close to clear that condition. We did do a TT FIX session reset just as a precautionary measure, but that did not clear this condition.


There is a reason why it is designed this way:

We believe the reason why order queuing was supported when an order is in a Pending Cancel state through what is called our DTC server which is used for TT order routing, is because when there are multiple orders canceled, and there is OCO functionality on some of those orders, there could then be an unnecessary rejection message because there would be a double cancellation.

But it creates a situation like today where when an order is in a Pending Cancel state due to the failure of communication from the source trading server to provide the order status, and then the order is no longer open, the order is then lingering, and we have to disable queuing to allow the user to cancel it. And in effect what happens in this particular case, is that TT rejects the order cancel request indicating the order does not even exist and then we go ahead and put it into an "Error" state.

----

Update: We have now provided AMP this particular post and we explained to them that we now understand, why they were saying that they could not access your orders in some cases.

Those orders were never working to begin with and they could not see them.

We understand, why it is they were telling you to contact us. And as we said, when the orders are in a Pending Cancel state, those were just simply lingering nonworking orders.

Since we follow rule of not clearing orders with an uncertain state, and leaving that decision to you, and we were using queuing, caused the situation where you could not fully cancel them. That is now patched.

And we understand how this can be "scary". But we also know, that your broker and the exchange can see your orders. If they cannot, they do not exist any longer.

And we also want to say one thing, the physical connectivity we maintain to the CME for the multicast feeds, and the Internet and all the other infrastructure for the servers, is provided by a provider who provides services for low latency high-frequency traders. We have multiple layers of redundancy in case of a hardware or Internet failure. We are never in a position where we ourselves have to scramble to fix some kind of connectivity or hardware problem. That is managed by others, and we rely on the redundant setup that we have.


And one final detail: We also patched a problem with this last update this evening for TT FIX, where the year 0 with CME symbols was getting converted to 10 instead of 20. Since the CME uses single digit years.

At this point in time, this was not causing any problem unless you are trading contracts out that far. The worst case is that it would cause a position not to show in the chart but it would still show on the Positions tab of the Orders and Positions window. It would not cause any order routing issues or fill processing problems for orders submitted through Sierra Chart. And it should not have caused a problem with the Position for spreads showing in charts. Since those would use the fill calculated position method.
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-14 03:23:18
[2019-08-14 03:17:25]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
Prior post updated.
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[2019-08-14 04:33:39]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
We are also going to add the Exchange order ID with each order update embedded with the Order Action Source field so you will have that if needed.
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[2019-08-14 10:21:54]
AKR - Posts: 409
to #62: I did not say it is the same issue and also did not think so. Just wanted to let you know somethings not working again.
I also do believe fully it is up to TT not Sierra, but actually that does not matter to me to whom it is up.
Anyway.
No need for an answer to this ...
[2019-08-14 10:46:32]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
Let's see what TT is going to say in the coming days.
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[2019-08-17 15:51:11]
4trading - Posts: 20
Greetings:

I found this post Sat. morning. TT posted an update dated to yesterday (16th) here:
https://www.tradingtechnologies.com/blog/2019/08/16/update-on-the-tt-outage-on-august-13-2019/

Actions to be taken:
Short-term actions

Beginning this weekend and over the next few weeks, Zookeeper services will be moved to separate hosts from UMP.
Beginning this weekend and over the next few weeks, all UMP hosts will be switched to solid state drives. These types of storage devices are far superior to traditional spinning disk drives, which will increase the servers’ disk I/O capacity.
We are actively working internally to reproduce the two Zookeeper-related defects where (a) the Zookeeper leader responsibility was not properly transferred to a follower on a restart and (b) Order Gateways lost connection to the entire Zookeeper cluster when only a single node was restarted.
We will be making a change in Algo servers to better handle real-time changes to the Zookeeper cluster to ensure proper cleanup of synthetic orders when cancelled after a change is made.
We will enhance the size and scope of our scalability test environment and invest the necessary engineering resources to enable automation of a base set of cross-component load tests that run weekly across multiple versions of code.

Medium/long-term actions
We are working on a roadmap to share directly with clients which will highlight the series of changes we will be making to both our scale/load testing procedures as well as any design or architectural changes to address the instability experienced in the last few months.

Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-17 18:40:27
[2019-08-17 21:23:57]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
This is disturbing. We ourselves have not used hard drives on our servers for probably like more than 10 years. So these guys are eager to sue everyone over a frivolous software patent which is illegitimate to begin with and illogical, and they cannot even afford an SSD!!

When we buy hardware, we get the very very best and do not skimp on anything. You deserve the very best hardware. And that is what we utilize. That is what you deserve. And it is the same philosophy in our software development. You deserve the very best and everything being very well-thought-out.

And this philosophy goes into everything we do. We remember when Microsoft's date and time controls started having a rendering problem after a Windows update. And what did we do, start utilizing some more inefficient and complex and limiting and ridiculously designed, new fancy looking date and time controls, like some of you said. No!! We ditched their trash, and wrote our own date and time controls, which are high-performance are going to get even better, and has a minimal dependency on the OS, and later will have zero dependency on the OS other than the basic window.



This is also an external project:
https://zookeeper.apache.org/

We would never rely ourselves, on any external project for anything in Sierra Chart other than Open SSL. Although we do use an external XML and JSON parser but those just exist as header files and are quite simple:
http://rapidjson.org/
http://rapidxml.sourceforge.net/

Open SSL is used just because of the complexity of encryption. Everything we develop ourselves and it is under fully our control. We would never be utilizing any external software, for order routing.

Just look at our Support Board. This is fully developed ourselves. And even our ticket system is developed ourselves. Who even does anything like this? Nobody does. We develop everything ourselves.

to address the instability experienced in the last few months.
This and another TT order status issue is what led to the issue on August 2 and greatly magnified the problem into into a repetitive scenario. The problem was they were not providing the correct order status after we kept requesting the status of an order. Otherwise, the issue either would not have occurred, or if it did, it would have been very isolated to a single moment and have a limited effect.


There was a code error on our part where there was no differentiation between a mass order status request, and the request of the status for a single order in the execution report handling. This is because there is no unique ID for a order status request on TT FIX. So far they have not been willing to accommodate us on that and add it. They closed our ticket on that. It does not matter in the short term though. We just simply just do not request the status of a single order any longer.
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-17 21:33:52
[2019-08-22 06:32:57]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 75442
The short answer as to why this thread was not getting attention and other TT issue threads were getting attention earlier on that day, on August 13, was that our support engineers on the board at the time, mistakenly thought, that this was a discussion of a prior issue and since there was a lot of postings already in this thread. It can be difficult to sort through all of it.

It is best to start a new Support Request and provide the details of an order rejection message. Refer to:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?page=doc/PostingInformation.php#ProvidingLinesFromTradeServiceLog

There has been a change in procedures to ensure that issues like this are brought to the attention of senior engineering as quickly as possible.

When there is a lot of posts in a thread, and being that Sierra Chart supports so many different external services and there are various issues which could reported to us every single day, related to connectivity, related to operating system behaviors, related to external service problems, it is hard for us to sometimes to pick out among all of that things that we need to follow up on directly which may be related to our own systems.

However in this case, this was strictly a TT issue and it made no difference as to when we would have responded. Our systems do not require any intervention in cases like this. And rarely would we ever have to do any type of emergency intervention. Everything is designed in such a way, that we should never have to do that. The most that we we would have needed to do, which we did do is reestablish the connection to the TT FIX service to make sure the positions are up-to-date. And we did that at the appropriate time.

In the other threads we looked at on that day, from our perspective they just looked like issues isolated to the particular account since it look like order routing to the CME was not set up for a particular account.

We have over 100 users on our LMAX order routing connection, and that just simply works without any problem for years other than some isolated incidents with connectivity which we have solved by moving to a different hosting provider for the servers.
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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2019-08-22 06:36:21

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