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The Story of IG Markets and Sierra Chart. Classic Breach of Contract
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| [2015-09-23 08:51:56] |
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In recent years, we have had many requests for Sierra Chart to be integrated with the Forex and CFD broker IG Markets in the United Kingdom. Many of these requests came in 2013 in some of them are here: IG Index LINKING SC WITH IG INDEX We have not counted the total number of requests. There other requests that have come in by email as well. A rough estimate is that probably at least 20 of them. Although some of these could be from the same user asking more than once. There was one particular user of ours, who was very persistent about Sierra Chart supporting IG Markets and how it would be a very great thing. We held off on this for more than a year because integrating to a new Data or Trading service is a substantial task, and generally is an unpleasant experience. We would only consider using the FIX protocol because it provides the very best integration for reliability. And it reduces the development time. This thread documents the failure of IG Markets to perform promises clearly made. For those of you wanting Sierra Chart to work with IG Markets. It will not happen because IG Markets does not want it to happen. This has been made public because the conduct of IG Markets is completely out of reason and wrongful. It is not so much the lost money, gratefully which was not that much because we were working with the established FIX protocol but the fact that a significant effort was done for absolutely nothing when they should have been very clear about their intentions from the very beginning. If they do not want to perform, fine, we will each go our own way, but IG needs to acknowledge that they made a mistake and needs to compensate our efforts within reason. This is all we are asking. Below is a series of email messages and also verbal communication. All messages have dates. =================== 2015-01-20 One of our clients has had some conversations with Alex Maslin about the possibility of adding IG Markets support into the Sierra Charts platform. We are at a point in time where we can now spend some time and get this done. We would need access to the FIX API documentation, symbol definitions, and a test account. Also, if you have any type of compliance protocol, it would be good to review that before starting as well. I am the primary development contact on the Sierra Chart side. Thank you. Al Sierra Chart ---- Sent: 23 January 2015 18:14 To: Daniel Lawrance Subject: Fwd: Adding Sierra Charts IGMarkets Support Daniel, I am a developer at Sierra Chart, and had sent the email below earlier this week not knowing that you had taken over for Alex. I believe you spoke to one of our customers today about getting IG support into Sierra Chart. We can very easily add support via a FIX interface, but obviously need access to the specs, test account, and any compliance info you may require. If you can send a spec to me or set up credentials for me to access online, I can take a quick look to see if there is anything that would cause concern or need clarification. I am located in the Central Time Zone in the US, and can be reached via skype or phone. Just let me know when you are available, and we can set up a time to talk if required. Thank you. Al Sierra Chart ---- From IG 2015-01-26 Dear Al, Please find attached our rules of engagement. IG Financials The IG financial results can be found on the below link. http://www.iggroup.com/corporate/financial-results.html IG is a global leader in online trading, providing fast and flexible access to over 10,000 financial markets – including shares, indices, forex, commodities and binaries. Established in 1974 as the world’s first financial spread betting firm, IG’s aim is to become the default choice for active traders globally. It is already an award-winning multi-platform trading company. It is a member of the FTSE 250 with a market capitalization of £2.2 billion (May 2014), and with offices across Europe, Africa, Asia-Pacific and the US, where it offers limited risk derivatives contracts via the Nadex brand. Testing Attached you will find the rules of engagement for your technical team to review. If you can send me a static IP address I can set you up with a demo API connection. I have also attached our product offering that is available via our API. Many Thanks Daniel DANIEL LAWRANCE Senior Institutional Sales Manager IG, Cannon Bridge House, 25 Dowgate Hill, London, EC4R 2YA D: +442075730555 | T: +442078960011 www.ig.com ---- To IG 2015-01-27 I have looked thru the info you sent and need clarification on connections/logon. You requested a static IP addr. Is this required for all users or just the initial test account? Can we set up a dynamic addr in the short term? I see that you do not send any kind of userid/password thru in the logon message. Do you only use the SendingCompID and TargetCompID to determine if a user should be connected? Is this the reason for a static addr? We would like to use a model that has worked well for some other client interfaces. Basically, we run an instance of SierraChart on our server that would connect to IG and request market data for the common symbols. This allows us to provide historical data to the user in a seamless fashion. The users would then connect to the IG server for real-time data and trading, while our server would provide back fill data. Is this model reasonable? Thank you. ---- To IG 2015-01-28 Sent: 28 January 2015 17:40 To: Richard Elston Cc: Daniel Lawrance Subject: Fwd: Re: Adding Sierra Charts IGMarkets Support Daniel is out of the office. Can you help by answering any of the following questions? ---- From IG 2015-01-29 Hello Al Dan is back tomorrow so I won’t intervene too much. However I can help with the below questions……. I’m afraid we do need a static as opposed to a dynamic IP. This is simply so that we can permission your connection on our side, hence the lack of password and username etc.. The good news is that we only need that static IP for you. We would not need an IP for any underlying client I’d like to investigate the model a little more and understand the technical aspects before I confirm your suggestion definitely works for us, though I do see where your angle is coming from. Dan will revert upon his return Thanks and regards Richard Elston ---- To IG 2015-01-29 Any status on this? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Adding Sierra Charts IGMarkets Support Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 11:07:32 -0600 To: Daniel Lawrance <Daniel.Lawrance@ig.com> I have looked thru the info you sent and need clarification on connections/logon. (Remaining email removed because it is already included above) ---- To IG 2015-02-04 Daniel, We are still waiting to see if our proposed model will work for IG. Have you had a chance to review this? Once we are all in agreement on the model, I can get you a static IP to set up our test account. Thanks Al ---- From IG 2015-02-05 Dear Al, What is the best number to call you on in relation to the below? Many Thanks Daniel DANIEL LAWRANCE Senior Institutional Sales Manager IG, Cannon Bridge House, 25 Dowgate Hill, London, EC4R 2YA D: +442075730555 | T: +442078960011 www.ig.com Sent: 04 February 2015 03:21 To: Daniel Lawrance Cc: Richard Elston Subject: Re: Adding Sierra Charts IGMarkets Support Daniel, We are still waiting to see if our proposed model will work for IG. Have you had a chance to review this? Once we are all in agreement on the model, I can get you a static IP to set up our test account. Thanks Al ---- Internal Sierra Chart communication -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Fwd: RE: Adding Sierra Charts IGMarkets Support Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 10:44:50 -0600 CC: Daniel Lawrance <Daniel.Lawrance@ig.com> Anthony, I talked with Daniel today, and I think we are good from a technical perspective, but he would like to talk with you about the business side to be sure it is a good match for both parties. He is copied on email, and his number is below. Al ----- In relation to the above, this was the understanding of the Sierra Chart developers: From one Sierra Chart developer: "When we started looking at SierraChart support for IG Markets, we first started by discussing the model that would be used to connect Sierra customers to IG. That model was to provide all real-time and historical data to customers via SC servers, and direct connection of customers to IG for trading. The Sierra servers would connect to IG for data via their current model of using a static IP address and the FIX protocol. Customers would connect to SC servers for data, and connect directly to IG for trading via FIX with a login/password instead of the current static IP addr requirement. This model was not supported by IG at the time, but IG agreed that they would be able to support that model. Further discussions were held between Anthony and IG. Once everyone was satisfied with the proposed model, we went ahead and implemented IG support in SC and started collecting data on our servers." From a senior Sierra Chart developer and the management: "I communicated both by voice and written communication many times our proposed connection model to Daniel at IG Markets, and it was clearly expressed by Daniel that they can support that connection model. During a call I had with Daniel, they made it clear that they can support the connection model and it is not a problem other than relating to CME data. During that voice call, I once again reiterated that we require one or two market data connections to our own server and we will redistribute the market data to IG Markets users when they get a successful connection to the trading server. Each individual user will use a single trading connection to the IG Markets FIX server. Although during that same call Daniel did express a concern about setting up a large number of accounts on FIX connections. I had the understanding that this was an internal concern relating to the effort to provision a FIX account. Based upon what they said, there was not a concern that they would not do this at all, but based upon our experience with FXCM, they may not be happy to do it with small accounts and only might be comfortable doing it with accounts with more substantial balances. So I offered that they could put a minimum €5000 balance as a requirement. They never said they would do this. And it was just a suggestion by us in order to create a good working relationship to filter out very small accounts that do not trade. Once again, they never said that they would not perform or required us to be a broker. No such communication took place. It was quite clear that they would be providing the FIX connections to users. When Daniel was asked by me about providing Sierra Chart 1 or 2 FIX data feeds which we can use to redistribute market data to the IG Markets users once they get a successful connection to the IG Markets trading server, that was agreeable to them but they could not allow us to get access to futures (CME) data. I said I understand that kind of restriction and that was not a problem. We were only interested in the Forex data and CFD data. No concern at all was raised about us providing the Forex data and I do not think there was any problem with the CFD data to my knowledge. I was also asked about how we would be marketing IG Markets, although I did not really see the relevancy of that. We said that it would be listed on our Data and Trading services page. We would make an announcement on our Support Board about it, and word would get around among our users and IG Markets customers. Once there was a clear understanding on all sides, we were then provided with the actual FIX test accounts for market data and trading, by IG Markets. These had to be provided to a static IP address and we gave them that static IP address and gained access. " ---- From IG 2015-02-06 Dear Anthony, It might be better if you look at our web API to integrate with as you will have multiple users. http://labs.ig.com/ I just wanted to find out a little more about how you promote new brokers you connect with. Are we just looking to integrate this for one client or have you had demand from multiple users to connect with IG? Many Thanks Daniel ---- From SC 2015-02-06 10:48 PM Hello Daniel, I just gave you a call but was told you are away from your desk. There will be multiple customers. There does seem to be significant demand for Sierra Chart to use IG Markets. We would rather use FIX because that is the most straightforward and most reliable method of integration. We would have to look at the web API but normally what we see, this type of model does not fit so well and generally is confusing. IG Markets will will be listed on this page: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?page=doc/data.php#Services And word will also quickly get around that we are now supporting IG markets. Thank you, ---- To IG 2015-02-06 Hello Daniel, Can you let me know what business related questions you have about our integration to IG Markets. We only require you provision us with 2 FIX connections for us to receive the market data to provide the data to IG markets users and to maintain the historical data. Trading connections will be from each user to your FIX server. We are not a broker and we have no expectation to receive any income from this from you. Thank you, Anthony | Sierra Chart | Software Developer ----- From SC 2015-02-16 9:31 PM Hello Daniel, I really would like to talk with you when you are back to settle the final details of integration of Sierra Chart to the IG Markets trading and market data system. Thank you, ----- Comment from Sierra Chart: At this time, we had not begun any integration to IG Markets. We needed to be very clear they would understand the connection model we require and that they can perform according to that required connection model. We would never have proceeded doing any programming until there was a clear understanding on both sides, which was clearly reached again during the call. ----- From IG 2015-02-20 Dear Anthony, Please can you supply me with a static IP address so I can set you up with some demo UAT credentials for you to begin the integration on your side for testing. Many Thanks Daniel ---- Comment from Sierra Chart(2015-10-18): What is the purpose of this request above from Daniel with IG Markets if they have no intention of performing? They are leading us along into completely useless programming to their systems. This programming costs us, Sierra Chart, money. ---- From IG 2015-02-26 Anthony, I just want Mrs to confirm I have received your static IP you will have your demo UATs tomorrow morning UK time. Many Thanks Daniel Sent from my iPhone > On 25 Feb 2015, at 20:27, SierraChart.com wrote: > > Hello Daniel, > > Use this static IP: > > ds4.sierracharts.com [204.11.49.26] > > Thank you, ---- From IG 2015-02-26 Dear Anthony, We are now ready for you to begin testing with our FIX API. You will require two FIX connections: one to receive market data and one to trade. Please find attached the rules of engagement. DEMO FIX OTC Trading [session] (Connection details removed) DEMO FIX OTC Market Data [session] (Connection details removed) Please contact FIXTradingsupport@ig.com by email if you have any technical questions, connection problems or need help to configure your FIX software. Many Thanks Daniel ---- Comment from Sierra Chart (2015-10-18): IG Markets have now given us the ability to rely upon their promises to our detriment with the above connection information. ----- From SC 2015-06-12 5:24 PM Hello Daniel, We are ready to go to release support IG Markets using the FIX connection. We will also need one production market data connection for our server. How will existing and new IG Markets customers obtain the FIX connection to use with Sierra Chart? We need to know the procedure for this. And I want to confirm there is a minimum balance. Something like €5000 or pounds? Thank you, Anthony | ----- From SC 2015-06-20 Hello Daniel, We are ready to go to release support IG Markets using the FIX connection. We will also need one production market data connection for our server. We would like to get that as soon as possible so we can begin maintaining historical data. How will existing and new IG Markets customers obtain the FIX connection to use with Sierra Chart? We need to know the procedure for this. And I want to confirm there is a minimum balance required for a user to use the FIX connection? I need to know what that is. Also one of your customers was asking whether they could use their spread betting account with the FIX connection?: http://www.ig.com/uk/spread-betting ----- From IG On 2015-06-25 1:40 AM, Daniel Lawrance wrote: > Dear Anthony, Unfortunately we are make some changes to our API that will take around 6 weeks to implement. We will not be able to move forward until then. Many Thanks Daniel -----Original Message----- From Sierra Chart Sent: 19 June 2015 22:34 To: Daniel Lawrance Subject: Re: Adding Sierra Charts IGMarkets Support Hello Daniel, We are ready to go to release support IG Markets using the FIX connection. We will also need one production market data connection for our server. We would like to get that as soon as possible so we can begin maintaining historical data. How will existing and new IG Markets customers obtain the FIX connection to use with Sierra Chart? We need to know the procedure for this. And I want to confirm there is a minimum balance required for a user to use the FIX connection? I need to know what that is. Also one of your customers was asking whether they could use their spread betting account with the FIX connection?: http://www.ig.com/uk/spread-betting Thank you, ----- From SC 2015-06-25 5:43 AM Hello Daniel, Could you at least provide us the FIX data feed to our server so that we can start building the historical data over the next six weeks? This is the Sender Comp ID we are using for market data: DEMO-CLIENT9 This is the address: demo-fixmd.marketdatasystems.com:55230 Our server IP address is: 65.182.172.164 Could you please allow this connection from this IP because your firewall is not currently allowing the connection. ----- From SC 2015-08-20 7:59 PM Hello Daniel, Could you please provide an update about your progress on this (See below). If I have not already introduced you to the DTC Protocol, I would like to do that. This is an initiative we have started: http://www.dtcprotocol.org/ We hope that you can join us with supporting this. Thank you, On 2015-06-25 1:40 AM, Daniel Lawrance wrote: > Dear Anthony, > > Unfortunately we are make some changes to our API that will take around 6 weeks to implement. > > We will not be able to move forward until then. > > Many Thanks > > Daniel ---- From IG 2015-08-24 Dear Anthony, Apologies in the delay in coming back to you. Unfortunately we are still not in a position to move forward. We have a number of legal, IT and data redistribution issues to resolve before we can look at supporting a connection that you require. We are currently working with single entities that require one connection only as we launch this product. As it stands we cannot support your connection for multiple underlying clients. Many Thanks Daniel -----Original Message----- From Sierra Chart Sent: 23 August 2015 00:39 To: Daniel Lawrance <Daniel.Lawrance@ig.com>; Rainer@Hartl.com.au Subject: Re: Adding Sierra Charts IGMarkets Support Hello Daniel, I sent you an email a few days ago asking for an update regarding what you said below. As of yet I do not have a response. The reason for that email is because our customers are asking about when Sierra Chart is going to work with IG Markets. I am following up for them. Also your statement below is unusual in this industry for a FIX API which should already be well established. We invested thousands of dollars, to integrate to IG Markets and then we are just told we have to wait without any detailed explanation. While we are very busy, and personally we are not in a hurry to release support for IG markets, I was disturbed by what you have said because it reveals some unknown functional problem with your systems. The development to integrate to IG Markets was not our own initiative. This was requested by many of your existing customers and potential customers and one customer of yours in particular. I have included a copy of this email message to them as well. It is routine, that messages we have sent to you and others at IG Markets, are often not responded to. If you would like to talk on the phone instead, then just say please give us a call. But not responding, when we have invested thousands of dollars of development, is concerning. Previously I asked you for the data connection so we can start maintaining historical Intraday data ahead of release. There was no response to this request. Therefore, when we release support for IG Markets for Sierra Chart, there will be no historical data. ----- From SC 2015-08-24 Hello Daniel, Just so that we are clear. Sierra Chart only needs to support the Forex and CFD markets. Not any futures or other forward markets. In our experience we are not aware of any redistribution issues involving this category of data. These kinds of issues typically involve futures and stocks. We only require one data connection and the data will be redistributed to the IG Markets users through our own systems. Each user will connect directly to your FIX trading server for trading. We think it is better for trading for each user to connect to your own server directly because the bandwidth requirements are next to nothing and this has the highest level of security and reliability. We will be patiently waiting until you can support the above model. ----- Sierra Chart comment (2015-10-18): As we have indicated, the above connection model was already communicated to IG Markets in writing and by voice multiple times. They said that they can do this and it is not a problem. ----- From IG 2015-08-25 2:07 AM Dear Anthony, For redistributing indices there are issues for example if you wish to redistribute any CME product you need to have a CME agreement in play if you require live data. Many Thanks Daniel ----- From SC 2015-08-25 5:41 AM Hello Daniel, So are you referring to CFD cash indices? We can leave those out for now. Although we do redistribute the ones that FXCM provides. They allow us to redistribute them to all of our users. Not just FXCM users. We have no need to redistribute CME data. And I do understand the issues surrounding that. It is also possible to allow our users direct FIX connections for market data. Thank you, ----- From IG 2015-09-23 8:28 PM Dear Anthony, At this stage whilst we roll out our API offering an internal decision by senior management that we will only connect to regulated brokers. When this changes I will be in contact. Many Thanks Daniel ----- From IG 2015-09-23 Dear Anthony, If you can provide me a business case to push this internally then I am more than willing to do so. IG cannot be expected to move forward with an integration with any entity without a business rationale. Can you provide me some details such as the below? · Average volume · Average number of trades · Unique clients trading · Ideally a spreadsheet that details; · Date · Time · Client ID (anonymised, but unique) · Trade size (either normalised to a single currency, or with a currency identifier) · Trade direction · Trade price · Markets This is standard information we require all entities to provide us. We have no understanding on the number of clients that Sierra Chart have that wish to use IG as an executing broker. At no point has anyone confirmed to Sierra Chart that IG will integrate or conform with Sierra Chart for a full integration. Many Thanks Daniel -----Original Message----- Sent: 23 September 2015 09:54 To: Daniel Lawrance <Daniel.Lawrance@ig.com> Subject: Sierra Chart and IG Markets Hello Daniel, Thank you for these details. I need to prepare a formal response in order to formally offer to settle this matter and bring it to a close. There cannot be an indefiniteness leaving this matter to some unknown future date. I suspect this is a tactic to avoid responsibility to some unknown future point in time where we will just hopefully forget about it. I can assure you, that is not going to happen. It is important we close this matter in a mutually agreeable way and move forward. This email does not close the matter. Please wait for our formal response. Also the decision that your senior management came to is totally inconsistent with industry norms. I have been in this business for 20 years and I have never seen such a decision with the kind of working relationship which was understood and agreed to from the beginning. Take Interactive Brokers for example, they have a very large number of external applications, many of them commercial, using their proprietary API and their FIX API. Sierra Chart currently supports connection to 10 different trading services using FIX where the connection is a direct connect from the user to the FIX server. Thank you, ----- From SC 2015-10-09 Hello Daniel, I apologize for the long delay. I am still putting together the response. I need to go through all of our emails to get a clear understanding of all of the communication. In general, we do not have access to the information you are requesting since we are not a broker and never will be. With the kind of working relationship which was agreed to in the beginning, what you are asking is not relevant and we are not asked these kinds of questions from other Trading services we work with. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-10-25 23:18:26
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| [2015-09-23 10:20:00] |
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Latest response: Dear ,
If you can provide me a business case to push this internally then I am more than willing to do so. IG cannot be expected to move forward with an integration with any entity without a business rationale. Can you provide me some details such as the below? · Average volume · Average number of trades · Unique clients trading · Ideally a spreadsheet that details; · Date · Time · Client ID (anonymised, but unique) · Trade size (either normalised to a single currency, or with a currency identifier) · Trade direction · Trade price · Markets This is standard information we require all entities to provide us. We have no understanding on the number of clients that Sierra Chart have that wish to use IG as an executing broker. At no point has anyone confirmed to Sierra Chart that IG will integrate or conform with Sierra Chart for a full integration. Many Thanks This is so unbelievable, I am not even sure where to start. Your email response does not make any sense to us. It shows a complete lack of understanding and considers us (Sierra Chart) a broker when we are not. -IG Markets says: If you can provide me a business case to push this internally then I am more than willing to do so. This was already discussed by text and by voice with Daniel at IG markets many times in response to similar questions in the beginning. Refer to post #1. What more information do you need? This is so basic and straightforward in this industry as to what we are doing. Normally we have brokers coming to us, like Oanda, wanting Sierra Chart to integrate to their services. Not the other way around. - Why is it that after we have done all of the integration work to the FIX API for market data and trading now you are asking us to give you a business case to push this forward? In the very beginning before we incurred any detriment you said that you could perform to two of us here at Sierra Chart. And we made certain we had clear confirmation of that before we incurred any detriment. Now you say you cannot. We made it clear we did not want to have any commissions shared with us. This is one thing that was communicated to IG Markets in the very beginning. This was the communication from us back in February 2015: We only require you provision us with 2 FIX connections for us to receive the market data to provide the data to IG markets users and to maintain the historical data. Trading connections will be from each user to your FIX server. We are not a broker and we have no expectation to receive any income from this from you. - None of the above email (at the very top of this post) from IG was ever communicated to us in the beginning when we began the integration to the IG Markets FIX implementation. -If there is not a rationale, why after we (Sierra Chart) explained to you in clear text and verbally, what we require that you said you can support the connection model and subsequently provided us the technical specifications and access to the server for testing. Once again this was communicated to two of us here at Sierra Chart. Refer to post #1 for this written communication and testimony of the verbal communication: The Story of IG Markets and Sierra Chart. Classic Breach of Contract | Post: 69346 -Why is it that you have these FIX APIs to begin with, provide us access to the API documentation and a test account, and say that you can provision the FIX accounts to users, and then later say you need a business case? You cannot do that. You must pay us for our development time, or perform. -It was communicated to two of us, that IG Markets can and will perform to our technical requirements. This should not be difficult. We work with about 10 different FIX connections direct from users to the FIX server. This includes even Currenex and LMAX. - We are not a broker. - They say: This is standard information we require all entities to provide us. We have no understanding on the number of clients that Sierra Chart have that wish to use IG as an executing broker. We have never been asked for this information ever in the history of our business from any Trading service that we work with. And why does the second question even matter? Naturally there is going to be new business brought and existing customers retained. If you try to make this so difficult in the beginning, nothing is going to happen. And once again none of the above information was ever communicated to us in the beginning. IG Markets cannot bring up these requirements now and try to apply it to us when we are not even a broker, and use it as an excuse not to perform. - We are not your slave and this is not a slave relationship. So you expect us to do all the integration to your IG Markets trading and market data interfaces and guarantee you a certain amount of trading business, for a mere $10-$20 a month that we receive from our own users for Sierra Chart? There is 0% consideration in it for us with this kind of working relationship. And we have no idea the volume of trading that people will be doing. We will never have access to that information. And that is something that IG markets should and must know. We (Sierra Chart) are not a broker. - IG Markets says: At no point has anyone confirmed to Sierra Chart that IG will integrate or conform with Sierra Chart for a full integration. Clearly you are acknowledging that promises were made, but not certain promises. I elaborate on this more here: The Story of IG Markets and Sierra Chart. Classic Breach of Contract | Post: 69526 In one call IG Markets did express an internal concern that there may be some effort, either one off, or ongoing to provision the FIX accounts to many users. This was an internal issue for them to sort out. I suggested that a user has a minimum account balance just like is required from FXCM. A minimum like 5000GBP/EUR. So this was something that possibly might have been required. Although this was merely a suggestion on our part in order to maintain a good working relationship until such time that they have automatic or streamlined provisioning of the FIX connection. Never at any time did they express a condition on providing the FIX orders connection to users until the final breach. There was a definiteness that they would perform. There was never any doubt about that otherwise we would have never proceeded with the integration and more importantly IG Markets would never have given us FIX technical specifications and test accounts in order for us to rely to our detriment. Once again it was communicated to myself and another programmer here at Sierra Chart on separate occasions as post #1 indicates that they can support the connection model that we require. An understanding about the connection model was reached before we incurred any detriment on our side. And I explained that the business aspect is we are a provider of the trading software and providing the data to the users. We would not have any financial interest in users trading accounts. And they cannot use a conformance test as a reason not to perform. We have never failed a conformance test. - There is no other way to express the reality of this other than to say IG Markets position is a breach of contract plain and simple. It simply makes no sense for them to respond the way they had, months later and after we had completed all of the integration. This is irresponsible and damaging to us. - In June 2015 they communicated to us: Unfortunately we are make some changes to our API that will take around 6 weeks to implement. We will not be able to move forward until then. This confirms their ability and intention to perform. That is abundantly clear! This was in response to: Hello Daniel,
We are ready to go to release support IG Markets using the FIX connection. We will also need one production market data connection for our server. How will existing and new IG Markets customers obtain the FIX connection to use with Sierra Chart? We need to know the procedure for this. And I want to confirm there is a minimum balance. Something like €5000 or pounds? We would like to settle this matter with them for a payment of 3500 USD to us. IG Markets has breached an offer for unilateral contract that we have accepted. They cannot later raise various conditions which were never communicated in the beginning as an excuse not to perform. Thank you. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-10-30 04:58:53
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| [2015-09-24 05:30:20] |
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The reason this issue is so important to us, is as we mentioned in post #1, but also because this is happened twice before where a significant programming effort was made for absolutely nothing in reliance on promises that the other side had no intention of keeping due to incompetence and big-company attitude thinking they could just get away with it. Well they are not going to get away with it this time! Those other companies in the past were E-Signal and PC Quote. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-09-24 05:32:25
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| [2015-09-24 07:56:46] |
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This is one of the discussion threads, requesting us to add support for IG Markets: IG Index Comments like this, turned out to be totally untrue: IG Index | Post: 20712 This is the most recent comment in the last day: I'm very disappointed and sorry for you, i know now the responsable of this incredible delay.
ig can't give to their customers a good platform like Sierrachart because if their customers start to win money, IG start to lose ! We would not be surprised if what they said at the last part is true. We held off integrating IG Markets probably for about two years. When we did it, it led only to breach of contract and a waste of time. This is only further supportive of the reason why we have started the DTC Protocol initiative: Http://DTCprotocol.org We are not going to integrate any other Data or Trading service. They will need to work with us to integrate to a common communications protocol for this industry. Which is the DTC Protocol. This is an absolute must. Over the next week or two, I will try to put together the complete case backing up our position showing that we did not do anything wrong. And IG Markets clearly breached the contract. Both them and their lawyers are going to claim otherwise and that they made no promises. Absolute nonsense! The law of contracts is very clear in this regard. If allegedly they made no promises, when they did, then why did they clearly lead us into through both their actions and statements, to our detriment with nothing to gain for it. We are not dummies here at Sierra Chart and we are very careful about these kind of working relationships to make sure everything is clearly understood. Especially after our experience with E-Signal and another company called PC Quote which went out of business. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-09-25 05:17:48
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| [2015-09-25 07:52:32] |
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We want to comment on and clarify one thing IG said: At no point has anyone confirmed to Sierra Chart that IG will integrate or conform with Sierra Chart for a full integration. Regarding the underlined text, there was no promise from IG Markets to do any integration to Sierra Chart. Yes that is true but that is not the reason for the breach of contract. Integration to Sierra Chart using the DTC Protocol was never discussed. There was no expectation of that from our side. The problem is they are not providing the market data feed to Sierra Chart or the FIX order connections to our users who want to use IG Markets with Sierra Chart. And there was no expectation for them to provide futures data. Only Forex and CFD data. This was also something that was discussed and understood ahead of time. It was understood that IG Markets can and will provide the market data feed to us and the FIX order connections to their customers who want to use Sierra Chart. They said they can do this. And is expected they will at the appropriate time. This is something that was and is clearly understood. Think about this, broker/trading services like CTS, AMP, LMAX, CQG and FXCM and Currenex brokers, routinely provide FIX connections to our users. And yet IG cannot. And we want to reiterate, what IG has done we regard as a very serious matter which cannot be explained as anything but outright breach of contract. It does have a legal remedy. We of course course would like to settle this matter outside of formal proceedings. Also IG said the following: "for a full integration". So you can see that Daniel with IG Markets is saying that they did make promises but they did not promise " a full integration". What exactly does that mean? At the very least we can conclude that they agree that promises were made, but yet there was zero performance from their side. We think this was in regard to not providing futures data which was already understood and agreed to from the very beginning. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-10-26 00:11:47
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| [2015-09-27 00:43:41] |
| User742717 Mike - Posts: 86 |
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Never trust a OTC broker!
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| [2015-09-27 01:32:14] |
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Yes, you are absolutely correct.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing |
| [2015-10-18 07:58:31] |
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The first post of this thread has been updated with the text and verbal communication made with IG Markets. Updated 2015-10-18.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing |
| [2015-10-18 18:05:23] |
| User931283 - Posts: 55 |
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My reading/ opinion (strictly) is that SC in good faith stated the best way to interface for reliability and the future, and IG appeared to accept and agree to provide a FIX server, which seemed to "mislead" SC, or at least "not disclose" "in good faith" that they really would not expand from their API, nor provide the FIX server. Their interest in SC seemed mostly to bring instant clients rather than providing a better trading experience. Is that telling? Does IG show ignorance of the strong demand and trend in professional trading toward speed, reliability, ease-of-use, robustness and maintainability of Sierra Charts, with SC's unmatched support, responsiveness to problems and openness to constant improvements in the platform itself? Having used eSignal, TradeStation and leading brokers, I know what works-- Sierra Chart. NOTHING is faster, more modular, more capable, or more reliable. It has NEVER halted, never failed to run, and remained Fast while handling enormous real-time demands. ANY even-casual survey of current stronger "Trader-brokers" and sophisticated exchanges like CQG shows THEIR commitment to Sierra Chart Leadership and acceptance by experienced traders. That IG seems unaware of these aspects, not very intersted in a leading state-of-the-art platform, and seems unconcerned about the future direction of connectiions for reliability/maintainability-- may be telling. Does IG test platforms and plan for future connection protocols, like AMP/CQG do? The future of protocols matters. Wouldn't a company with smart management LOVE to have a firm like SC help get the best modern connections going for testing? Ultimately, only traders with the TOOLS like SC and solid data connections/feeds, to make money--- will prove out who wins in the long run. Every aspect of Sierra Chart screams fine product, company, support, people and management. And IG? What? |
| [2015-10-19 22:10:25] |
| User742717 Mike - Posts: 86 |
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And IG? What?
IG Market, in Australia is one of the bigger and well known, Spot FX & CFD brokers.They have news ads on TV here! That said, I'm sure they are just another bucket shop (I'm not say they're bad!). SC would give any broker instant credibility for sure, but that alone is not necessarily a good thing for users in the long run, IMHO. IE: Brokers offering the bypassing of the "pattern day trading rule", but the catch is you have to send your money on a holiday or Cyprus, with very little guarantees of it coming back. Granted, it's not SC job to do a due diligence on the broker/exchange but some are really better then others. And really, if FXCM is supported, why bother with IG, Oanda, Pepperstone, etc, etc. The smaller the OTC broker, the larger the user risk! Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-10-20 00:10:59
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| [2015-10-19 23:49:14] |
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Thank you for the feedback.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing |
| [2015-10-30 09:22:00] |
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IG Markets has been provided the information this thread and this is their response: Dear Anthony,
I have received your below email this morning. If you wish to make a formal complaint to IG can you please follow our complaints procedure on the below link. https://www.ig.com/uk/complaints Many Thanks Daniel DANIEL LAWRANCE Senior Institutional Sales Manager So we have contacted their compliance department. We will await an answer. Obviously if they disregard this case and do not offer any settlement, then it clearly indicates a corrupt operation at IG Markets. We will tell it like it is. Perhaps you may think we are making too big of a deal out of this. Possibly, but this is not the first time this has happened. And it is not right. This has happened in the early days of Sierra Chart a very long time ago and was quite damaging. This is why we were very careful with what we did and we made sure we had very clear communication but yet it still happened. These big companies cannot operate the way they are and we will not let them get away with it. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-10-31 01:36:25
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| [2015-10-31 10:20:19] |
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Our experience with IG Markets and concern of corruption at IG Markets is confirmed by the comments here: http://www.trade2win.com/reviews/brokers/214-ig Really quite a disgusting company. There is no other way to say it, and we are not going to hold back. Very sad we got mixed up with those dishonest people. We are going to move forward, and be very very careful next time. And we do believe, that the reason this whole thing ended with failure is because we are an honest business and IG Markets is dishonest, and there was never a potential for it to work out. It was never our idea to integrate to IG markets, this was purely customer driven. One thing we are going to do is update the integration to LMAX, a true exchange from what we understand, so that there is lower connectivity costs and Trade Position reporting. Sent this 2015-11-02: ----- Hello Daniel, To be clear, it is not the failure to perform which is a problem. If in the end, you have changed your mind that is fine with us. The problem is the avoidance of responsibility and not paying us for the development time which we did. Despite what you or your lawyer may think, it is breach of contract. I very thoroughly and objectively reviewed this case and applied the applicable law. We made no mistake here. We made it very clear as to what we required, and was confirmed by you to two of us that you would be able to support what we require. Even if the issue surrounds a static IP address for the FIX connection, obviously you would remove the requirement for that based upon what we required but even if that was a requirement at the outset, many users do already have static IP addresses and can easily obtain them from their ISP. We also have the software technology to route multiple users through a single FIX connection but that is not the preferred way to do it because it requires the customer to authorize that ahead of time since we gain access to their account. In the end, you said: > At this stage whilst we roll out our API offering an internal decision by > senior management that we will only connect to regulated brokers. Fine, I will provide you our banking details and you can make payment for our development time. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-11-01 21:52:14
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| [2015-11-03 04:03:42] |
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Got this message from IG Markets compliance: Thank you for your email.
I am sorry that you are not satisfied with your interactions with IG, particularly with Daniel Lawrence regarding IG’s API. I understand that earlier this year you were given access to a Demo FIX API, this from was given to any party who requested the demo, the purpose of which was to ensure that the prospective party’s systems were configurable with IG’s systems. The provision of the demo enables the prospective party to ensure the setup of the API is operationally possible before time and money is spent drafting legal agreements and so on. Daniel Lawrence has explained that for IG to work with you he would like to see a business case that he can propose to the business as to why Sierra Charts would be appropriate for IG to work with, within posts to your website you have explained that you are dissatisfied with this as typically brokers come to Sierra Charts, and not the other way round. Whilst I appreciate this may be the case, I believe Daniel’s request is not unreasonable and believe that just as you have the right to decide who you would like to do business with, IG has the same right. Whilst I appreciate that this matter has obviously caused an inconvenience to you, I’m afraid that I am not persuaded that IG is guilty of any wrongdoing. There is no formal relationship or legal agreement in place between Sierra Charts and IG, and as such IG has no obligation to work with you or pay you any compensation. Apologies for the inconvenience caused. Yours sincerely IG Compliance IG, Cannon Bridge House, 25 Dowgate Hill, London, EC4R 2YA www.ig.com We will have a detailed response. But essentially this is a sham response and makes irrelevant points. For example, comments like this: There is no formal relationship or legal agreement in place between Sierra Charts and IG, and as such IG has no obligation to work with you or pay you any compensation.
Is no legal defense against breach of contract. Even verbal contracts are enforceable under the common law of contracts. Just because they take the big-company attitude that there is no contract in their opinion, does not change the fact that they do have contractual obligations that they have created for themselves. They made promises for an act. This is a clear example of an offer for a unilateral contract. We are not trying to make the point here that we want to work with IG Markets. At this point, absolutely not due to the fact that they are a corrupt operation based on our experiences. Why anyone would open account with IG markets, is beyond comprehension. The truth of them is being revealed. At the very least we hope this is educational. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-11-03 04:24:14
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| [2016-02-19 21:33:45] |
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They said the reason they do not want to work with us is because we are not a broker according to top management. It is not because of some other "business case". This was something later raised later. If there was not a business case in the beginning, providing us the technical specifications and a test account to integrate to the FIX server will not in any way change the "business case". It changes absolutely nothing when it comes to their need for a "business case". So why did they they provide us the technical specifications to begin with? It makes no sense whatsoever and it would not make any sense for us to integrate if there was still a business case question still remaining. Certainly we were not aware of that. And as we said previously, the business case already exists. And when were ready after integration, they had no business case questions to even ask us at that point in time but indicated that they were going to proceed with their side of the agreement. Furthermore, we do have the technical ability to use a single FIX connection and route orders from multiple users over a single FIX connection. But they said they do not even want to work with anyone other than brokers. So even that is not even possible. And then they raised legal issues relating to market data which are solvable but then they disregarded our solutions. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-02-19 21:40:57
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| [2016-02-24 05:42:40] |
| sigmadict - Posts: 95 |
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Very nice to read the story and learn from this experience. I wanted to read more, but that was it, I reached the last post. Thanks for sharing and allowing us to be more aware of things. |
| [2016-02-24 07:42:25] |
| User972044 - Posts: 154 |
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I find Sierra Charts is more suited for more of ECN type of brokers like IB or at least MarketMaker brokers that are risk neutral like FXCM which clearly have an incentive to provide fast reliable data feed to their clients for volume trading that makes up a more predominate source of income rather than pure market makers that are only interested in profiting from clients' losses. And that is why I am surprised that LMAX proved to be not so lucrative for Sierra Charts as I thought LMAX is more of an ECN broker and would definitely benefit from users who are able to use a platform like Sierra Charts to get fast data plus programmable capabilities. And at the same time, perhaps Sierra Charts can look into some of the Australian brokers like IC Markets, Pepperstone and etc. to see if more fruitful business relationship can be provided there. These brokers, even though they advertise as ECN but are really like FXCM so if Sierra Charts is doing well with FXCM then Sierra Charts might be able to do well with them as well. They are both currently using CTrader based on C# but perhaps Sierra Charts can offer traders who use those brokers an alternative. Just my thinking. Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-02-24 07:42:49
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| [2016-02-24 08:55:26] |
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In case you are not already aware of the new connection model planned for FXCM and LMAX, then read here about the changes we are making which are going to greatly increase their use among Sierra Chart users: Announcement: New Connection Model for FXCM and LMAX Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-02-24 08:57:34
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| [2016-02-24 09:48:00] |
| User972044 - Posts: 154 |
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Hmmmn I thought you said LMAX was a total waste of Sierra Charts' time in one of your posts. I guess things changed? Good to hear.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-02-24 09:48:15
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| [2016-02-24 10:02:59] |
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In general, enormous and we mean enormous amounts of time are wasted with the integration to and integration maintenance for data and trading services. The situation is absolutely pathetic in this industry and we are not afraid to say so and this is why we developed the DTC Protocol: http://dtcprotocol.org And we do believe that over time this will catch on in the industry. Our position is, if you do not adopt the protocol, you are going to fall behind. So we may have said integrating to LMAX was a waste of time and certainly it was and that is why we are working to change the connection model. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing |
| [2016-02-24 10:34:59] |
| User972044 - Posts: 154 |
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Is this protocol currently being supported by all the brokers that you provide dts for? And does it affect us in any way in terms of how we use Sierra Charts, how we code and etc. with this new protocol?
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| [2016-02-25 04:51:26] |
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TransAct has added support for the protocol, but not really in the most ideal way. There should be a server-side implementation of it. It does not affect users but there is a DTC Protocol server: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?page=doc/doc_DTCServer.php Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing |
| [2016-03-19 20:01:06] |
| Mack - Posts: 83 |
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IG are total assholes. I met some of them in person; and this story doesn't surprise me. The term "Bucket shop" really applies here. They are more interested in ripping off customers than anything else. Also, why go with IG when we have quality options like IB Brokers or LMAX. Screw IG. |
| [2016-03-20 09:34:30] |
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Thank you for the confirmation. You are right about Interactive Brokers and LMAX. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, *change* to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing |
| [2016-07-17 22:09:42] |
| User679195 - Posts: 2 |
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I am a customer with IG and use their web API and it has consistent problems which is probably why they didn't want more clients using the FIX protocol with SC.
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