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[User Discussion] - Sometimes life has long complex problems (AMP/TTNet)

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[2015-04-16 04:37:46] #1 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
The following thread (SC/TTNet not talking with AMP auto-trim/liquidate) was locked with the following comment from support: Amp/TTnet provides accurate overnight position reporting. We are closing this thread because it is a long complex thread. The thread needs to be re-read carefully. Nowhere was it implied that AMP/TTNet does not provide accurate overnight positions. The issue in the thread is not resolved and most likely will not be. The issue is that the TT risk management software that AMP uses *DOES NOT* communicate in real-time accurately with Sierra Chart. If you flatten or trim an over leveraged position in the last 5 min of the session....beware that you may end up with an unintended position due to this no comm issue. I spoke with an AMP agent on the trade desk a couple of weeks ago and the issue still remains. They have to update Sierra Chart manually during the downtime between sessions which is of no help because the unintended position has already occurred before this. The only way to verify proper trade status is to call the trade desk.....period!!! They openly acknowledge this issue and don't seem to have any interest in resolving it....nor does Sierra Chart. AMP uses real-time account balance to determine over margined scenarios so be sure to have the up to date exchange margin requirements and call their trade desk if you have any doubts.

[2015-04-16 04:49:05] #2 [Go To First Post]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 104368
That response you saw from Sierra Chart Support, us, was in response to a message immediately preceding it recently posted by another user. The thread was closed because the thread was long and complex and the user was asking about something that did not seem directly related to that thread and we did not want to reread the thread understand what it was about. They openly acknowledge this issue and don't seem to have any interest in resolving it....nor does Sierra Chart. There is no way we could solve such a problem and we also do not have a clear understanding of it. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, change to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing

[2015-04-16 05:03:39] #3 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
The other user's comment was an inquiry of whether or not the issue was corrected.....and it is not.

[2015-04-16 05:05:17] #4 [Go To First Post]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 104368
OK, we misunderstood it and we acknowledge that could have been the case because we did not reread the thread. We normally will not reread a complex thread. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, change to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing

[2015-04-16 05:06:48] #5 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
In an effort to provide a clearer understanding I offer a hypothetical example.....and I will keep each post limited to 2 short paragraphs or less to avoid lengthy complexity. My example involves trading Crude Oil (CL) with Sierra Chart & AMP/TTNet as the data feed. All time references will be Chicago (CST) time.

[2015-04-16 05:11:21] #6 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
Let's say tomorrow at 16:10....5 min before session close.....I have a real-time account balance of $10,000 and have a 10 lot LONG CL open position since AMP allows $1000 intraday margins on this product. For whatever reasons, I decide to trim this at 16:14 thinking I've met the exchange overnight margins of $5000+ for CL currently. So I sell 9 and believe I have a 1 lot LONG CL open position going into the "overnight". Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-04-16 05:42:12

[2015-04-16 05:16:05] #7 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
In reality what happens is that AMP's TT risk management software takes action at 16:11 and sells 9 CL lots to meet exchange requirements....but does not communicate this with Sierra Chart. So when I decide to trim at 16:14....I have no idea of this auto-trim activity already taking place. So I end up being SHORT 8 CL's into the "overnight". And Sierra Chart does not reflect this position accurately. Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-04-16 05:42:56

[2015-04-16 05:19:22] #8 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
AMP says their system will alert them to update trade positions manually but when this happened to me last Nov-2014 three different times with Nasdaq (NQ)....it was never updated. The only way I knew was when I checked my statement which doesn't arrive till 7-8 hours after session open.

[2015-04-16 05:24:22] #9 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
Nobody wants to take the ball on this.....and I realize long complex problems suck when people are overwhelmed. This is more of an FYI to anyone trading with Sierra/AMP/TTNet.....you could end up with a potentially catastrophic position and not find out until people show up to your house to start taking your furniture, cars, electronics, etc.

[2015-04-16 05:29:15] #10 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
Luckily for me last Nov-2014.....this type of event did not occur. It will not be an issue as long as you know AMP's TT risk management software takes action at 16:11 CST. They don't post this anywhere.....the only reason I know is because of what happened. This 16:11 CST 'time of action' was communicated to me via the trade desk agent. Their website says to please meet exchange requirements during the last 5 min of the session with no indication of a specific time their system will take action. (Whoops....that was 3 paragraphs....sorry) Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-04-16 05:43:58

[2015-04-16 05:31:25] #11 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
Be aware that the 16:11 CST 'time of action' is specific to a market that closes @ 16:15 CST. So the real nugget to take from this is that the 'time of action' is 4 min before session close.....regardless of product. Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-04-16 05:44:16

[2015-04-16 05:33:51] #12 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
As mentioned before....they (AMP) openly acknowledge this issue with Sierra/TTNet setup. They say the Sierra/CQG setup does not have this problem. For whatever reasons, the CQG risk management software is able to talk with Sierra effectively eliminating this issue.

[2015-04-16 05:36:39] #13 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
Hopefully this clears up any misunderstandings about this issue.

[2015-04-16 07:57:46] #15 [Go To First Post]
User13668 - Posts: 291
Indeed. I asked AMP this exact question in January. Below is the cut & paste of the two emails I received which confirms what bekitz3 says. "If the Net Liquidity of an account reaches a Daily Loss Limit of 80%, open positions will attempt to be liquidated. Clients are responsible for monitoring their positions and are financially responsible for any losses generated by open positions in the account. AMP retains its right to liquidate positions in any account, at its sole discretion, with no forewarning. If the Risk Desk is forced to liquidate positions in any account, due to either 80% daily loss limit reached or to meet Initial Margin set by the exchange 5 minutes before the daily trading session close, there will be a $25 per contract liquidation fee charged." http://ampfutures.com/trading_hours.html http://ampfutures.com/margins_req.html "The ES closes at 4:15 PM Central and open 45 minutes later at 5:00 PM Central. The trade desk liquidates positions at 4:10 PM central." But note, my concern was about the hours AMP quotes on their website for the trading of ES - which are wrong. So make sure you know the closing time of your instrument as per exchange rules as the 5 minutes liquidation rule will be based on that. Another thing that MAY help here, although I have not had time to try it yet; Matt from Optimus Trading posted a reply to a comment made on BMT about a few shortcomings on TTnet. see here: https://www.bigmiketrading.com/brokers-data-feeds/35401-sierra-charts-amp-futures.html#post490031 Matt is suggesting we should be able to run X-Trader (which he says is free) side by side with SC/TTnet and use X-Trader to check account balances. Maybe if this works it will also show open positions?? Don't know, as I said have not had a chance to test this yet. Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-04-16 07:59:44

[2015-04-22 15:57:02] #16 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
I wondered the same thing about X-Trader since when this auto-liquidate/trim event occurs, there is a $0.50 "X-Trader Fee" on my statement per contract. But I specifically asked the AMP trade desk agent if I would be able to see these orders placed by the risk management software within the X-Trader platform and he said NO. Not sure about the account balances since I've never used the platform. I guess if account balances were visible, one could deduce that if the account balance stops fluctuating or fluctuates significantly less with changes in price, then the position was flattened or trimmed.

[2015-06-16 03:39:19] #17 [Go To First Post]
Futures Operator - Posts: 239
Has anyone reached out to Dan from Amp to see if he would be interested in getting this communication on correct position reporting issue with SC resolved?

[2015-08-18 22:05:44] #18 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
I believe another case of this occurred via this recently locked thread: Unable to clear false open orders I first spoke about this at the start of the year here: SC/TTNet not talking with AMP auto-trim/liquidate

[2015-08-18 22:22:14] #19 [Go To First Post]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 104368
The issue in this thread is commonly reported: Unable to clear false open orders In the last year or so, it is reported less because of the text notice at the top of the Trade Stats for Charts tab. We do not see the relationship to what this thread is about. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, change to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing

[2015-08-18 23:00:38] #20 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
In post #3 of Unable to clear false open orders the user states: I have no working or open orders as my account was liquidated and was not allowed to trade for 24 hours. The issue originates from an AMP/TTNet auto-liquidation event The user also states in the same post: the Trade Activity Log shows I have 3 open quantity short position on an instrument This is the indication that SC is showing a 3 lot short position that in reality doesn't exist because the auto-liquidate already flattened the position. I spoke about how this was resolved for me in post #3 of SC/TTNet not talking with AMP auto-trim/liquidate (item 2) 2) After I was aware of this from my account statement, I then flattened the position in the next session which in reality created a new open position within Sierra Chart *(which didn't really exist)*. Upon seeing this, I did try the dis-connect/re-connect option with no change and also tried a restart of Sierra Chart with no change also. I had to contact the trade desk to confirm I was really flat and upon this confirmation they then did something on their end....then had me restart....then the position was gone and Sierra reflected the proper 'Flat' status.

[2015-08-19 00:52:58] #21 [Go To First Post]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 104368
This is the indication that SC is showing a 3 lot short position that in reality doesn't exist because the auto-liquidate already flattened the position. This is only on the Trade Stats for Charts tab which most of the time is going to be showing you an imaginary Open Quantity calculated purely off fills that Sierra Chart is aware of. Not on the Trade >> Trade Orders and Positions >> Positions tab reporting the actual Positions from the trade server. It is only the Positions tab which should be relied on. 2) After I was aware of this from my account statement, I then flattened the position in the next session which in reality created a new open position within Sierra Chart (which didn't really exist). Upon seeing this, I did try the dis-connect/re-connect option with no change and also tried a restart of Sierra Chart with no change also. I had to contact the trade desk to confirm I was really flat and upon this confirmation they then did something on their end....then had me restart....then the position was gone and Sierra reflected the proper 'Flat' status. And where specifically in Sierra Chart did you see this particular Position reported? Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, change to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-08-19 00:53:59

[2015-08-19 02:09:18] #22 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
And where specifically in Sierra Chart did you see this particular Position reported? In the Trade DOM & any charts where Trade >> Show Orders And Position was enabled.

[2015-08-19 06:50:33] #23 [Go To First Post]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 104368
The other user you thought who had this problem did not. There were not seeing an incorrect Position Quantity in those locations. Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. Try to keep your questions brief and to the point. Be aware of support policy: https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation For the most reliable, advanced, and zero cost futures order routing, change to the Teton service: Sierra Chart Teton Futures Order Routing

[2015-08-19 14:25:20] #24 [Go To First Post]
bekitz3 - Posts: 83
From post #3 of Unable to clear false open orders the user states: The Orders and Positions window does reflect that I have no open or working orders *Orders* is the key word. I read this to be info from the Trade >> Trade Orders And Positions >> Orders tab (1st tab) But do we know with 100% certainty that the next tab (middle tab -- Positions) was not indicating an open short position in Sept-CL?

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