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Date/Time: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 07:56:07 +0000



Future planned OS platforms for SC

Support Request:
[2015-11-12 05:11:18]
User35525 - Posts: 125
Dear SC engineering,

Rather than an extremely broad framework like QT, please consider a tighter C++ framework like SFML, which is extremely portable, is mature, is not so monolithic, stands on its own with few dependencies, is engineered well like SC, is actively developed, and has a friendly license.

I am presently using SC on Linux+Wine, and would really hate to see SC fracture future development by forking the Windows codebase to create an OS X version built with a completely different API. That would certainly cause major logistics headaches and maintainability issues for SC engineering to support.

Sincerely,
A concerned customer
[2015-11-12 05:32:05]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
We will have a look at SFML.

For the record, this thread most likely is in response to this thread here:
https://www.sierrachart.com/SupportBoard.php?ThreadID=15765
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-03-26 08:39:02
[2015-11-12 05:51:43]
User35525 - Posts: 125
Thanks; see this part of the SFML FAQ about GUI packages and GUI libraries:
https://github.com/SFML/SFML/wiki/Community-FAQ#libraries
That wiki article should have listed the "SFML Projects" sub-forum:
http://en.sfml-dev.org/forums/index.php?board=10.0

You can use any OpenGL-based GUI library, even interfacing it with QT if you wanted to use QT's native widgets and dialogs, but SFML for most everything else to keep things as maintainable as possible by using QT minimally:
http://en.sfml-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=18660.0

In addition to the main site's tutorials, these 3rd-party tutorials are a good introduction:
http://en.sfml-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=19264.0
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-11-12 07:16:38
[2015-11-12 08:01:48]
ganz - Posts: 857
SC Support

The safest thing that we might decide to do is to support Mac or Linux and not both of them.
That post has some good points.
Mac port would be the logical step for mouse operators.
But trading engines should support it as well but they don't.

Also QT5 and GTK3 have no good performance and stability states at this time.
Nothing has changed during last 20 years in this area.
At this moment RedHat has supported GTK: Gimp, Firefox, LibreOffice.
Looks like it will be the primary tool for the new crossplatform .Net Core initiative from M$.

So looks like there are no any sense to waste the time for Linux nor Mac now. :)
[2015-11-12 08:21:01]
ganz - Posts: 857
RedHat has supported GTK: Gimp, Firefox, LibreOffice.
and GNOME3 using Wayland API of course :)

GNOME3 might be the new basic UI for Linux because a lot of old linux users have prefered it.
[2015-11-12 08:49:16]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
What is the basis of this statement?:

Also QT5 and GTK3 have no good performance and stability states at this time.

Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

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If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2015-11-12 09:18:26]
ganz - Posts: 857
SC Support

It is based on Reports from devs
4ex:
the Qt 5.5.1 patch release provides close to 1.000 improvements and fixes
http://blog.qt.io/blog/2015/10/15/qt-5-5-1-released/

and on personal experience using QT5/GTK3 Apps in terms of stability, CPU usage, memory leaking and so on.
[2015-11-12 17:43:50]
User35525 - Posts: 125
I wouldn't mind SC using a simple OpenGL-based GUI library to provide dialogs and widgets, such as these:
CEGUI: http://cegui.org.uk/features
ImGui: https://github.com/ocornut/imgui
MyGui: http://mygui.info/#ui-tabs-13

Keeping it simple (SFML) and using one of these GUI toolkits would look non-native, but who cares, as long as it's stable and fast, and does what you want? It may be beneficial to keep the list of dependencies small even with the GUI framework.

QT isn't a bad solution, however, and many companies are using it in desktop apps, like Adobe, Amazon, Google, Microsoft (Skype), and others. It does seem to be very-widely adopted and constantly improving:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9793920
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/gtk-fesses-up-this-aint-for-you-qt-takes-over-the-world/
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-11-12 17:47:29
[2015-11-12 19:40:57]
ejtrader - Posts: 533
I would like to vote for Qt5.x unless there are any show stoppers..

Thanks
[2015-11-12 20:09:30]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
The basic fundamental problem is once we start using QT for windows and dialogs, the entire main application object and all of the windows and all of the dialogs all have to be converted at once. And all of the graphics code would have to be changed or at least some changes would have to be made.

This is too much work all at once.

This is the basic fundamental problem. The consequences of this are potentially so serious, that we realize at this point it is a risk that we are not willing to take. A good example of this is whenever Microsoft comes out with a new operating system, they make too much of a drastic change . Think about all of the problems that users experience. That is not something that is acceptable to us or our users.

The strategy has to be to find a way to incrementally port Sierra Chart to another operating system gradually while still maintaining the Windows version as it always has been other than incremental changes.

So we do not think the QT at this point, is a reasonable choice for a project like this. That is why, no firm decision was ever made on it.

We will look at these other GUIs mentioned in the post above. If we can start using something like that gradually to modify our existing code, that may be a good choice.


We will continue on the path, of making changes to Sierra Chart so it is less and less dependent on Microsoft classes and functions.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

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Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-11-12 20:14:02
[2015-11-13 01:46:18]
ganz - Posts: 857
User35525

OpenGl is deprecated.

Vulkan would be the right choice, imho.
[2015-11-13 02:02:43]
ganz - Posts: 857
User35525

QT isn't a bad solution, however, and many companies are using it in desktop apps, like Adobe, Amazon, Google, Microsoft (Skype), and others. It does seem to be very-widely adopted and constantly improving:
Adobe is well known as linux hater
M$ just leaves skype as is. And skype is still 32 bit only app.
Google uses a bunch of libs. buttons is not the main line for it.
Amazon? :)

Who are these guys? :)

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html
http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2013/Mar-05.html
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-11-13 02:03:41
[2015-11-13 02:23:56]
ganz - Posts: 857
SC Support

SC is the best charting and trading app I've ever seen to trade futures and Forex.

So yes, there is the thing to be careful with. :)
[2015-11-13 03:01:55]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831

So yes, there is the thing to be careful with. :)
Yes, we will be careful and we will certainly not jeopardize the quality and reliability of Sierra Chart.

Anyway, we discussed this today and we are going to continue the process of creating common functions and classes which encapsulate operating system level functions and GUI functions. This makes Sierra Chart better organized and easier to maintain.

In should allow us to adopt more easily another OS incrementally and using conditional compilation while still maintaining the very same Sierra Chart Windows program just like it is.

At the same time allow us to continue to make continuous new features and improvements in Sierra Chart for the general user base, without putting the Sierra Chart program on hold for many months while we attempted to adopt another OS.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
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If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-11-13 03:02:21
[2015-11-13 03:31:23]
ganz - Posts: 857
SC Support

That sounds smart.

It's not a good time to make a choice. Because of Linux.
[2015-11-13 03:55:27]
ganz - Posts: 857
User35525

fyi: https://www.khronos.org/assets/uploads/developers/library/overview/vulkan-overview.pdf
[2015-11-13 05:13:33]
User35525 - Posts: 125
Hi ganz,

Thanks for the heads-up about Vulkan. I had run across that before, but didn't realize it was to be released so soon. I'm not a hardcore programmer, and have just recently started playing with graphics by compiling the nim-csfml library examples for the Nim language, which use SFML's C bindings. Nim will likely have a Vulkan API Nim wrapper later this year. All the Python guys should really checkout Nim, especially if you know C or C++. It's fast, and feels like a better C and better Python: http://nim-lang.org

IgnorantGuru just came up in Google. ;-)I'm not ready to jump ship from Linux to OS X, having just recently moved completely from Windows.

I'm just glad SC has been engineered so well it works in Wine.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-11-13 05:29:01
[2015-11-13 05:43:11]
ganz - Posts: 857
User35525

Hi, of course :)

Thanx for the info. It is interesting.

trading engines not so flex as we want it to be
so I'm stuck with lua, python and I believe in .Net Core for small/private projects in the nearest future - 1-2 years.

Saying OpenGl as deprecated I meant big players are trying to start Vulkan in order to get something cross platform, modern, fast, simple and well designed. As Wayland should be.

I see all that new API-s and cloud-based setups for big data learning as a future.

SC is the perfect app at this time, but it has no future in this frozen functionality.
Third-party modern GUI API-s is too complex and heavy to be stable, fast and predictable.
Small ones is not well supported and might be died or acquired at any time.
So I'm not an optimist about that.
[2015-11-13 07:01:05]
User35525 - Posts: 125
Speaking of Lua, Python, and Nim, I just saw wxWidgets has bindings for all three. It's smaller than QT, is cross-platform, and has native controls. A combo of SFML (main app) and wxWidgets (dialogs and widgets) could be great, but probably have the same issue as QT to SC engineering: https://www.wxwidgets.org/about/screenshots/

I like the goals of cross platform, fast, simple, and well designed.. But "modern" is a moving target. :-) If a project meets the first goals, it will build a community and stay supported/modern, until the next best thing comes along. Yes, the smaller frameworks have issues meeting all of those goals, but if they have few dependencies, and the dependencies are mature-enough, you can support it yourself if that's the best path.

I think everything is moving to the cloud too, but as much as things change, they can stay the same. Technology, and all changing landscapes, follow the path of least resistance, like water flowing downstream. As much as I disdain change, and used to feel "big data" was a fad, I think you are correct about the migration to the cloud and scaling. Even with trading, retail traders could always use more data and more-intensive backtest processing, which may lend itself to bigger cloud environments.

I'm hopeful SC can negotiate a long-term solution. By taking responsibility over both OS and graphics API, they can maybe write wrapper functions to ensure they keep porting SC as times change. I'm not looking forward to the death of the desktop, and hope Microshaft doesn't speed that along, but even now I'm writing this on a tablet, and run SC in a VPS, remotely connected to my tablet. The personal computer must stay "personal" to be individually useful, and the same goes to OS's and trading software. The world will always need solutions that offer more choice, and SC fills that niche for me.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-11-13 07:18:34
[2015-11-13 07:31:10]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
This looks interesting:
https://www.wxwidgets.org/about/screenshots/
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2015-11-13 12:22:32]
User742717 Mike - Posts: 86
In an ideal world, everyones favorite platform is supported, sadly the more builds/fork the more problems and resources required.

Obviously, if CS main goal was multi-platform then it would be in java :D
Thankfully, it's not!

I like keeping a clean/minimalist VM (VirtualBox) and it simple and works very well!
I think most non window users expect specialised software to be mostly on windows.
http://virtualbox.org/ (free for personal use or a license is $50USD)

Being mostly a Linux user, I have no problem with CS being bear bones win32/MFC/VC++.
Unless Microsoft is changing the rules (ie app store?) then I don't get the business case for multi-platform support.

Just my thoughts.
[2015-11-13 20:12:39]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
Not everyone runs Windows, so it is important that Sierra Chart supports other operating systems. It is not a priority, but it is a long-term objective that is important.

We have had a look at this:
https://www.wxwidgets.org/

Very impressed with what we see. So we are going to do some testing. This very well might be the development framework we would use.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2015-12-12 18:46:15]
ganz - Posts: 857
ejtrader
I would like to vote for Qt5.x unless there are any show stoppers.

4 exmpl: https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-42985

just be more pedantic to see the reality.
it is not the time to start to use it :)
[2015-12-12 21:49:31]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
Regarding QT, as we have previously said it was something being considered, but there was never any definite decision until there was more consideration, there was performance testing, and until we had sufficient experience with it and understanding of it.

It is our decision that QT is not going to be used and never would be used. It would have been a disastrous mistake for ourselves and for users if we did something like that and that would never have happened. Support of another operating system will not come in 2016 but may come in 2017.

And the concept of a multi-OS development framework probably is not necessarily the right choice for Sierra Chart because we need to have complete control over the program and have direct interface with the OS for performance reasons. We would have to find the right development framework that is very lightweight and reliable, and in combination use that with direct OS interfacing for various things like network I/O and file I/O.

The WX Widgets framework/library is something we are looking at.

None of this is a simple task and is the basic reason why the support of another operating system by Sierra Chart, is not going to come for at least another year.

Also the QT bug mentioned is something we have also seen with Skype on Windows and we understand that Skype uses QT. So it is interesting you mention that bug because we noticed it about two weeks ago and it was confirmation to us of the serious danger in getting involved with these other development frameworks and why QT would never come under consideration any longer.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
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If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2015-12-12 21:50:50
[2016-01-11 19:21:50]
User188247 - Posts: 1
Very exciting to see that you are developing for linux and doing it the right way. 2017 seems so far away, but I understand to do it right will take time. Please don't sacrifice speed or stability in the product for "quick to market crunches". (qt,etc) But, also, understand that the hacking world is moving at an incredible pace and the sooner Sierra Linux is on the market the better. We need this product. Windows based systems in the financial world are more vulnerable then manufactures or users know. Ive been hacked. Its not fun and the financial repercussions were significant. Security was my motivation to move to Linux, the stability and quality improvements have been an unexpected surprise. In addition to security, Linux will give traders much better performance in heavy markets because of the better "realtime" handling of data. While Linux is not a true "realtime" OS, it has been tuned at the kernel for improved realtime performance. It is dramatically closer to a realtime system then windows and is about as "realtime" as you can get in an OS designed for generic use. Linux will differentiate Sierra from the crowd of charting packages on the market. As traders learn about the extraordinary performance, even in very heavy markets, the over all system stability and best in class security of linux the retail trading world will embrace Linux as it has been embraced by Wallstreet professionals. And Sierra can lead the way. If it was me, I would build a marketing program around the strengths in Linux: Performance, stability, and security. Also remind users that going to Linux does not mean giving up Microsoft windows. Linux has had a simple Dual boot feature for 10 years. Thanks Sierra, I for one am looking forward to trading on a native Linux Sierra system. Please, get Sierra for Linux to market as fast as you can, without giving up quality. We need this.

...And the concept of a multi-OS development framework probably is not necessarily the right choice for Sierra Chart because we need to have complete control over the program and have direct interface with the OS for performance reasons. We would have to find the right development framework that is very lightweight and reliable, and in combination use that with direct OS interfacing for various things like network I/O and file I/O.

[2016-01-12 00:08:31]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
OK thank you for the information.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
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If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2016-01-24 21:00:56]
bjohnson777 (Brett Johnson) - Posts: 224
I really like how y'all are consolidating and cleaning up code for all this. I also like how SC is contained in a single directory making backup and copying very easy. In the mean time, please keep SC as WINE friendly as possible.

Y'all already know I'm pro linux. I'd like to offer a few ideas for linux that might bump up the cross platform project's priority a little.

Here's a marketing consideration if there's ever going to be a "Mac xor Linux" platform decision: Mac hardware is closed and very expensive for what it is. Over the next few months I hope to have a handful of new programs written and posted... hopefully completing my market research and forming a reliable trading plan out of it. Once I prove profitability I plan on building a custom 16 core xeon/opteron server with a lot of RAM and moving SC to that. I doubt I'll need that much for SC, but I will need it for my scratch pad market C++ linux program I've written over the past few years. I'd like for the 2 programs to have simple interaction, so running both on the same server would be a major plus. I could probably get my program to compile on a Mac, but the Mac version of that hardware (if it even exists) would be prohibitively expensive. Expanding my point, using linux, a power trader can build whatever hardware s/he wants for a reasonable price. Linux will not impose any artificial limitations and will not slow down with scale. The sales page needs to mention that... and that data centers often offer generic linux installs on their hardware with a few clicks of a mouse when setting up a new server (no license fees required). That could be a major plus for some foreign users (like the support ticket a few days back where the guy moved to Asia and has a mediocre Internet connection).

Many common users find linux a bit daunting at first. SC could come preinstalled on a live CD. Rebuilding a live CD is tedious but not really that difficult. It would also make for a hard disk install CD. Whatever programming libraries y'all decide on can be included. Choosing libraries that are already included in the main distro will make end user upgrades trivial... or they could just be statically compiled into SC. Easy either way.

Some people like the buzz words "enterprise kernel/OS". While that really doesn't mean a lot in linux since most everything is compiled for reasonable to maximum efficiency already, a custom kernel could still be included that's more optimized than the distro kernel. If using a custom live CD installer, all the junk programs could be removed to streamline the OS part (including removing unnecessary services). Streamlining would help keep an "over curious" user out of trouble. It would also help get maximum efficiency out of the hardware since unnecessaries won't be running on it.

Eventually all this would pave the way to an SC server farm. It could be run directly by y'all or a partner(s).

Periodically when digging through support boards I see people who try a demo install but keep having problem after problem when they shouldn't. I know I've seen one support post here... maybe 2. That's usually a sign of some kind of hardware failure. A nice thing about the linux option is that the grub boot loader can be used to load hardware diagnostics programs. I use this on my own remastered live CD and hard disk installs. Anything the UBCD can boot can be applied. I normally recommend memtest, mprime (oddly it also found a buss config error on my quad), and the various hard disk tests. Sell it as: "Hardware doesn't last forever. Make sure your hardware won't trash your trades.". On a related personal note, I've lost 2 RAM sticks and a hard disk in my older systems in the past 12 months. As someone who used to do network admin, I firmly believe in regular testing (even new hardware).

As User188247 mentioned a couple posts back, security is a key issue not really addressed by M$. It's one of the main reasons I stay away from M$ products. One screw up (probably a 0-day) and a virus captures your user/pass information and then drains all your accounts before you know what happened. Linux firewalling isn't hard to add if someone wants a further hardened system (including the streamlining mentioned above). Probably the most hardened system a person could get would be on OpenBSD. If y'all's cross platform library choice includes BSD, there are some corporate customers who might really want that. After getting the linux version working, adding BSD shouldn't be too hard.

That's my 200pips for the day. Please continue the cross platform project. Linux offers a lot of flexibility for the future.
[2016-01-29 02:19:12]
ganz - Posts: 857
fyi: http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html

in case an anyone is a "linux pro" here so why just not to use C++ API / FIX-FAST /smthngBin on Linux not to waste the speed for "bells and whistles"? :)
[2016-01-29 17:17:29]
bjohnson777 (Brett Johnson) - Posts: 224
I'm having trouble understanding your "linux pro" sentence.

Picking the notable bits and pieces out of the article...

"I want to make one thing crystal clear - Windows, in some regards, is even worse than Linux and it's definitely not ready for the desktop either."
...And then it gives a long list of serious win problems, including "Windows rot" (double underlined). Rot is one of the big reasons (the other being extremely poor security models, still) why I stopped supporting windoze back in 2000 when I went independent. I was burned by it several times. There are people above my peer level who can't keep ANY win system that is regularly/heavily used running properly for more than a year (desktop or server, they've been burned, too). Barring stupid user mistakes (which I have also done myself), all of my linux systems will run until the hardware fails without effort.

Most of those problems listed in the article are just whining by a gamer. He complains a lot about things that aren't even finished. Keep in mind that the programmers for most open source software are unpaid and do it on the side. Some things have priority, some others don't.

The comments about choosing special hardware for linux if you want it to run is just as true about windoze. Try upgrading a laptop from win7 to win10. You'll be lucky to find all the drivers. Even if you do, many won't work right. Between each major win revision, M$ seems to break an absurdly large number of drivers. Complain to the manufacturers and they won't care. They will tell you to buy their new hardware "built for win10" (and doubtful to run on the future win11).

Don't even get me started about win "compatability mode".

Large companies not porting their expensive software to linux is a continuing problem with Mac's, too. My accountant wants to drop windoze because of the rot and security problems. Most of his accounting packages still have no Mac version or alternative.

The security block is whining quite a bit. M$ sales&marketing decided years ago that anouncing an emergency patch for an admin level exploit was bad for their image. Now they're all labeled along the lines that "this patch fixes an exploit that would allow unauthorized users to run code on the local machine." They won't even list what it's about unless you manually open up a web browser for each link. If M$ ever went "open source", M$ as a company would be over in a week. I've personally met and worked with people who have worked with "the holy source code", and they have nothing nice to say about it. Contrary to the article, the various linux package managers will auto update the system (logs in /var/log) just like M$ and Mac. Many people disable/break win update just because it breaks their system in return if they leave it on automatic. The comment about IIS server being more secure was just moronic.

Nearly everything in that list can be applied to M$ OS's in general... which he sorta does in the win10 series (but I got tired of reading it after the first 3 paragraphs):
http://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html

There's a big philosophy difference between unix in general and M$. Win tells you what you're going to do and if you don't like it, sucks to be you. Linux asks you want you want to do. If you don't like some of the offerings, there are often many viable alternatives. If you want to program your own, OS level source code is available free of charge. And yes, each have their own set of problems. Neither is perfect, but from the professional admin and support point of view, unix in general is far easier to deal with.

All in all, this is just another whiny (I keep having to use that word) and clueless (mixing half truths... saying you don't do it doesn't mean you're not doing it) article by Altervista trying to look more important than they really are. Admins with real training and real world experience will rarely ever reference Altervista. I haven't seen anyone use it (even for fun) among my peer group in several years.
[2016-01-31 03:11:01]
ganz - Posts: 857
bjohnson777

...

yes. linugz and windoze are the same toys for amateurs in terms of GUI.

so no need to bother SC Team to jump into another bad dirty hole.

but linugz is the very cool as a CLI based workbench.
[2016-02-04 17:39:32]
bjohnson777 (Brett Johnson) - Posts: 224
There are multiple linux desktops. I've tried/used many of them. I'm using a few right now. They are hardly amateur.

Some offer a very minimal footprint to not load the system down with useless bloatware. I bought my hardware to run applications... not a fat OS.
[2016-03-16 14:15:40]
ganz - Posts: 857
ejtrader

Today is the very first starting point to consider QT5 as something that will be stable in 3-6 months, imho :)

http://blog.qt.io/blog/2016/03/16/qt-5-6-released/
[2016-03-16 14:33:47]
ejtrader - Posts: 533
Thanks ganz. I have already started using RC version of it. Time to switch to release version :)
[2016-03-25 21:12:26]
ganz - Posts: 857
User35525

and wxWidgets (dialogs and widgets) could be great

wxWidgets 3.0.2 Released - October 06, 2014

There were some unresolved bugs these days.

wxWidgets 3.1.0 Released - February 29, 2016

It looks like a sleeping turtle :)
[2016-03-26 00:09:39]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
For the record, our tentative decision at this point is we will not be using any framework like QT or WX Widgets. It simply is too difficult and introduces too many problems which we have no ability or interest to contend with and which users will not tolerate.

Will be writing to one other operating system initially. We will take a vote whether that will be the Mac OS or Linux.

It will be purely based upon user demand and nothing else.

We expect this will start sometime next year and we will be continuing to change the Sierra Chart code base throughout the rest of this year to make it easy to adopt another operating system.

This has been an ongoing task that has been worked on over the years. Gradually the changes allow us to connect Sierra Chart to another operating system much more easily.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-03-26 00:12:15
[2016-03-26 09:09:32]
ganz - Posts: 857
as an experienced Linux user last 25 years

I would ask for someone who is asking for Linux version to stop it

In case you are not an amateur any more feel free to use C/Java API on Linux

In other case the only desktop ready commercial system will be Red Hat / Fedora and it is 2-3 years away from the proper state for that

Another chance might be as MS Linux :)
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-03-26 09:34:24
[2016-03-26 09:36:08]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831


In other case the only desktop ready commercial system will be Red Hat / Fedora and it is 2-3 years from the proper state for that
This speaks very poorly of the Linux OS to have something commercial ready for 2 to 3 years from now when it should have been more than 10 years ago.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-03-26 10:22:06
[2016-03-26 10:05:00]
ganz - Posts: 857
SC Support

Yes it is. But it is the reality. And it is no more than a hope as always.

Speaking of Ubuntu it is Debian based but uses a lot of unstable libs and solutions.
It's just the weak attempt to be but it is not.

I told you a year ago or so there are no stable and ready to use GUI\LIBS on Linux in terms of stability and performance. There is nothing better then Windows on Linux at this moment for desktop users.

If you need a complex solution try to follow Fedora and wait for Rad Hat branch.
Also Rad Hat is marked as a main MS CoreCLR production platform on Linux so I think it will be the main linux system for trading engines in case it will come on Linux.
[2016-03-26 10:22:55]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
Thank you for this good information.

It is also our sense that there is more demand for support for Mac OS rather than Linux. We do seem to hear about that more.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-03-26 10:24:04
[2016-03-26 11:03:34]
ganz - Posts: 857
SC Support
There is a simple logic to prove that :
It is also our sense that there is more demand for support for Mac OS rather than Linux.

99.9% of Linux distros and soft provide no any kind of warranty ...
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
So simple logic says when you use this you will be never able to ask SC Team to provide any warranties as well.

Is it OK for trading? I'm sure it is not.

Should trading systems have warranty and proven quality? - Definitely yes.

Does any non-commercial Linux system meet these needs? - Definitely Not.

So the only solution might be to wait for a proper commercial solution and use it.
Rad Hat might be the one of them but not at this moment.
And it is because of Linux.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-03-26 11:04:01
[2016-03-26 11:06:47]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
Thank you for the information. This makes sense.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2016-03-26 13:31:17]
Yoda - Posts: 46
As a Linux user (I use both Fedora and Debian), I do not share ganz opinion on the state of Linux. In my opinion, Linux is a stable, vastly superior product to Windows that is used in a significant number of commercial applications, not to mention running the majority of servers in the world. The comment about warranty is also a red hearing as all software (including Windows) have disclaimers (they have to for legal reasons) and it doesn't mean that one shouldn't use Linux or build applications for Linux.

However, the purpose of this post is not to start a debate with ganz. Rather it is to say that as a Linux user I look forward to a Linux version of SC and being able to stop using Windows altogether. By the way, I currently have both TOS (thinkorswim) and TWS (Trader Workstation from IB) installed on Linux and they work very well on Linux.
[2016-03-26 13:51:24]
ganz - Posts: 857
Yoda

we are here to find a cross-platform stable and fast gui toolkit.
so you've said nothing but another newbie priceless opinion.
[2016-03-26 14:52:25]
Yoda - Posts: 46
ganz, as I stated previously, I'm not about to get into a debate with you since SC Support has clearly stated that the decision on the next platform "... will be purely based upon user demand and nothing else". I'm sure that Mac OS and Linux users will vote accordingly.

I was simply sharing my opinion and findings (I have been using Linux since the early 90s and have extensive experience with it and Windows). I think it's best that we agree to disagree, and there is nothing wrong with that. But it is most unfortunate that you feel the need to attack me just because I don't agree with your opinion.
[2016-03-26 18:55:47]
ganz - Posts: 857
Yoda

that you feel the need to attack me just because I don't agree with your opinion.
lol what ...? Nope :)
it is because of your unqualified examples and /dev/null-based sentences.

if you are really so experienced engineer so give us the way to solve the problem.
or just accept the info from the topic, pls. :)
[2016-03-26 22:03:30]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
This is an important consideration for us:


I told you a year ago or so there are no stable and ready to use GUI\LIBS on Linux in terms of stability and performance. There is nothing better then Windows on Linux at this moment for desktop users.

Our understanding is QT uses X Windows but we have read many times this is a mess and we certainly would not use that and we would wait until there is a proper GUI API.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2016-03-27 08:05:30]
ganz - Posts: 857
SC Support
this is a mess and we certainly would not use that and we would wait until there is a proper GUI API.
Absolutely ...

but a lot of newbie Linux users are not aware of another side of this coin: video drivers (screen - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System ) subsystem issues

AMD was totally crap these years and it's just started to support Linux as it should be

Nvidia driver was/is/will be developing by volunteers and was always far behind from Windows version and even commercial blob is not so bad just now but it might be considered as not fully supported:
I mean Nvidia has dropped to support some chipsets since v.340 and added experimental EGL support for Wayland/Mir since v.364 only so it might cut a lot of hardware to use commercial blob on Wayland/Mir

So developing top notch charting software SC Team just waste the time to deep into this multilayer buggy environment, imo

In terms of still being best it realy worth it to find the way to add a market share using new (EGL based?) solutions in order to be best on Linux and will be Android compatible in some fashion ( 4ex: http://www.jide.com/en/remixos ), imho - in this case - my vote for Linux version
[2016-03-27 08:41:35]
ganz - Posts: 857
SC Support

there is more demand for support for Mac OS rather than Linux

It is not the criticism but I'm just puzzled a bit what do you want exactly

Mac is much better as a desktop environment just now but it might be the same in
3-5 years but Linux will be cheaper and democratic and students and enthusiasts prefer Linux as you know

You spent a lot of time to develop DTC and want some third party support by volunteers I believe - it is definitely the linux-way
or you want to be strong and best housekeepers tool - in this case Mac is the only choice :)
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-03-27 08:43:01
[2016-04-04 20:30:36]
bjohnson777 (Brett Johnson) - Posts: 224
Ganz is not the end all authority on linux.

I, too, have quite a bit of time under my belt. I've been using linux since 1997. I started learning unix in late elementary school back in the mid 1980's.

If someone wants to wait until a graphical programming package and related OS is 100% stable and bug free, that person will NEVER, EVER start a project ... on ANY platform.

Mac is a NetBSD bastardization. The hardware is closed source and absurdly expensive (Apple typically makes a ~40% profit). While Mac is far more stable than any windoze (because of the BSD core), many people do not like to be at the mercy of Apple marketing executives making hardware and other decisions for them. For the power traders, good luck on building a high performance custom workstation... Oh wait, you can't unless it is 100% Apple because that's a license violation. Good luck on finding the hardware you really want.

Where M$ is going with win10 and beyond has flat out pissed off a lot of professionals. Install win10 and M$ pretty much violates all your privacy and owns you. (...not forgetting the excess bloat that's way out of hand with each new version) A lot of that isn't too hard to turn off, but how many people have enough admin experience to do that? And what else is "hiding" that can't be disabled? When I install an operating system, I do it to run applications, not to see how pretty it is eating up all my resources with uselessness to the point where it interferes with those desired applications.

Red Hat Enterprise Edition may be an answer for commercial support, but it is not geared towards end users. When choosing a linux, pick the biggest and most popular to start with. That's currently Ubuntu. Canonical has commercial support packages. There are plenty of things I don't like about Ubuntu, but fixing them isn't impossible. (There're also KDE, Xfce, and LXDE flavors available for those who hate the Unity desktop.) Since linux is open source, releasing your own flavor variation isn't very hard. I've been remastering the live CD for years now. That doubles as an installer. That would also get a non-admin level trader running relatively quick on linux.

Backups (disaster planning). Years ago I used to recommend Ghost to my win based clients... but M$ has broken it and others due to their licensing paranoia. Reading reviews, sometimes those programs work, sometimes not. I gave up for my end user clients. I'm not sure about mac backups, but linux and BSD are trivial with Clonezilla (free and open source). Thankfully SC is pretty much self contained for everything, so that may not be a huge issue... just zip it out to a network share or thumb drive.

As far as getting bugs fixed, if it isn't a major security threat, ALL maintainers of ALL platforms will push it off to "whenever we feel like it". It doesn't matter if you have a paid support contract or not. They have things they're working on just like the SC dev's have things they're working on. It's nothing personal, it's just scheduling and the time available.

If the SC dev's choose their programming language GUI platform carefully, they can knock off win, mac, linux, and BSD at the same time with one language. Will it be sunshine and lollipops? No, of course not. Will it be more work that just the win platform? Yes. Will it expand the potential user base and offer something that NO OTHER charting package currently offers? Definitely. Will it bring in heavy power traders looking for performance (and privacy) that cannot be offered by win and mac? Very likely. Will it make the other charting packages nervous? Very likely. >:-]

As far as graphics drivers, that's a bit of a red herring. SC isn't a video game and won't even come close to using all the features of an over priced graphics card. (That's also true for M$ and Mac.) Commercial Nvidia and AMD/Radeon drivers will work just fine for most people. Default open source drivers will probably work just fine for most people. If someone wants to use a different card (or multiple cards in a non-standard configuration), SO WHAT? If they can get it working, good for them. The SC dev's will have their usual preferred hardware listing on the web site. Nothing will change in that matter. If someone has a really convoluted setup, the SC devs will push that person to a support package with the proper entity. Once again, nothing will change in that matter.

I personally have been using the commerical Nvidia GeForce drivers on my main workstation for several years without problems. I've also been using the open source Radeon drivers on my laptop for around 5 years without problems.

As far as calling something a “multilayer buggy environment”, start with M$. ALL of my linux installs have easily outperformed ANYTHING M$ has thrown out to the public in terms of long term stability. I started calling Microsoft “M$” because they charged a lot for a platform they claimed worked just fine... but reality was something quite different. If M$ put half as much time and money into their engineering departments as they do with sales&marketing, maybe win wouldn't be so bad... But blame M$ for pushing me to a linux server and desktop environment early on just because I got way to frustrated having to fix the same damn thing over and over and over and over and over...
[2016-04-04 21:07:30]
User35525 - Posts: 125
Awesome post bjohnson777.

I also started with Linux around year 2000 and prefer it. Before then it was AIX and IRIX. The reasons you listed (bugginess, security, privacy) are THE reasons I also don't use Windows, and won't use Apple OS X. I'm a system administrator, and cannot tell you how much time our users have wasted on problems due to M$; likewise, whenever I've been forced to manage M$ servers, time has been wasted there too.

Linux is a great all-around OS, with adequate performance on the desktop, and a niche on servers; I sure don't see many Windows and OS X servers. People use Linux period (server and desktop) because it offers more freedom and choice, and can be customized easily when necessary. It might not look pretty by default (like SC), but it "just-works".

Windows and OS X are black boxes, and as traders, we should appreciate that black boxes take choices away from end-users and obfuscate issues. There are plenty of Win/Mac/Linux software available, and I'd love to see that option for Sierra Chart. Not Java-based, but native apps. If the time comes that SC ever stops working in Wine, that will be the end of the line for SC and me.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-04-04 21:09:04
[2016-04-04 22:08:09]
ganz - Posts: 857
bjohnson777
Ganz is not the end all authority on linux
:)
sure. i'm not.
to wait until a graphical programming package and related OS is 100% stable and bug free
the new solution MUST be better. isn't it?
For the power traders, good luck on building a high performance custom workstation..
Will it bring in heavy power traders looking for performance (and privacy) that cannot be offered by win and mac?
Charts and power traders. Is it a joke? :)
That's currently Ubuntu. Canonical has commercial support packages.
Ubuntu? so why just not windoze? :)
NO OTHER charting package currently offers?
Investor RT has Mac version and it is good and advanced statistical app.
But the clue here is not the app but a trading engine API.
SC isn't a video game
Desktop users should feel comfortable and it is the key to be known as stable and fast.
...
so you've said a lot but you've said nothing

>> /dev/null
[2016-04-04 22:27:15]
Yoda - Posts: 46
so you've said a lot but you've said nothing

>> /dev/null

qanz, I'm not sure who from SC appointed you hall monitor, but last I checked these forms were open to all users to express their opinion. A healthy debate with lots of ideas is always good, but as I have told you previously, there is no need for you to be derogatory to other posters just because you don't agree with them or don't think they added value. If we all did that, this forum would become useless.

I for one (and I'm not alone) agree 100% with bjohnson777 and believe that his post is valid and on topic.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-04-04 22:46:42
[2016-04-04 22:59:56]
ganz - Posts: 857
Yoda
since this thread is opened for the discussion i will post it here when i feel need it
just ignore my posts in case you feel ill to read it

but it wold be very nice to see a solution from you or someone else
in other case my posts are just the same as all of that pointless ones
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-04-04 23:00:28
[2016-04-05 01:02:37]
bjohnson777 (Brett Johnson) - Posts: 224
Ganz is trolling a bit. I don't see anything I need to directly respond to.

A couple things I should have included:

1) I mentioned picking a development package that supports win, mac, linux, and bsd. A few of those will also support smart phones and tablets. The SC devs are on the right course cleaning up and modularizing code. This would potentially allow the same core code to be run on all devices. This would be a powerful offering.

2) While QT and WX may have their failings, they are also used by some major players listed on their web sites. Other smaller programming environments may stay around for now, but they may also crater in the future. That cratering would represent a massive loss of time.

Thankfully the devs are openly against java and m$.net. When I was trading with Schwab, their program was m$.net based and had some serious problems. I still fail to comprehend how I could get a 400meg XML config file off 8 tabs and a couple dozen chart windows... that would choke their "cloud service" xeons.
[2016-04-05 08:08:47]
Andreas - Posts: 299
i am badly waiting for the linux version of sierra. using wine and the win version isnt gonna cut it, you get these fat window borders while you can disable them in windows.. thats just horrible.

everything else i'd need to do i can do in Linux better that on Windows. Saying that Linux isnt ready for production is absurd. So please dont just listen to that one guy who is saying that.

however, i am a bit concerned about this "directional flipping" of SC. It almost seems as they change their mind every week. is there no way to set up a plan and stick to it?

thanks,
Andreas
[2016-04-05 09:50:23]
ganz - Posts: 857
dont just listen to that one guy who is saying that.

https://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=9

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Feb-2016-Steam-Stats

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc3NDk
[2016-04-05 15:26:10]
User35525 - Posts: 125
Good chart ganz:
https://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=9

Windows's total market share has apparently dropped 73% to 63% in just 12 months -- about 14% -- indicative of a decrease in desktop market across the board in favor of mobile platforms. Maybe a time will come when SC would need to work on a mobile device.

The desktop trend for the same period (May 2015 to March 2016) shows that Windows generally has 90% of the desktop OS market share, with OS X and Linux sharing the remaining 10%:
https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=9&qpcustomb=0&qpct=4

It's been said that 90% of traders are losing money. Could it be that 90% of users have an unproductive OS? We chose SC because it's the best desktop trader software available; it's engineered the best and "just works", consuming few computing resources.

It's no shocker that our astute trading community would similarly be choosy about our OS. Support said they'd take a poll here, which will show more than the general market share trends. I wonder what SC's market share is among traders, but frankly it doesn't even matter to me, because I know it's better than other platforms, and profitable traders (both professional and retail) esteem it highly. And a democratic poll isn't the best way in my opinion, because even SC agrees that Windows is pretty poorly engineered; if they want to continue to improve, they should offer higher-quality software (which means making it available to Linux and OS X).

SC has a niche in "quality", which is diametrically opposed to "Windows". Frankly it's amazing that SC can be such a quality product, considering the sub-par OS and broker data feeds pushed to the masses. That's a testament to quality engineering.

I'm frankly surprised that Linux has nearly 20% of the "alternative" market share! To be more specific, as of March 2016, Linux and OS X enjoy 9.55% of total market share; of that entire "alternative" portion (the 10% who aren't the clueless masses), Linux enjoys 18.64% of market share!! So, roughly 4x as many people choose OS X as Linux. Wow, kudos Linux! With all of Apple's marketing, you have 8/10 smart people choosing Apple, and the rest chose Linux! And what's even more cool, is that represents a 5.9% increase from May 2015. Maybe "smart" isn't the best word. As Windows has the broadest market share, there are bound to be many smart, profitable traders using it. Their life would be infinitely better if they ditched Windows, but hey, different strokes for different folks.

Smart people do the right thing "eventually", and that's why SC ditched M$.net, ditched Java, ditched Windows registry, implemented DTC, put all their software in a single directory, engineered a quality graphics API, made things simple enough to work in Wine, listen to their customers, are considering OS X and Linux, and have considered QT and WX. I hope SC support "re-considers" wxWidgets. It's a good option for the future.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-04-05 15:39:10
[2016-04-05 15:45:13]
ganz - Posts: 857
User35525

Yes. Looks good.

I prefer Linux since 1993 on everyday basis.
Check this forum and that old SC Support forum for wine/linux - I shared some info in order to use SC on Linux.
I'd like to use SC Linux version but there is the reality: Xwindows system is outdated and is not fully controlled by devs, QT5 has a lot of bugs (the info from QT5 devs).
QT5 on Xwindows is/will be never as good as Windows at this moment of time.
So we a trying to find the solution or we'd waiting for a new API on Wayland/Mir.

I'm asking for suggestions to solve the problem but not precious opinions how linux cool is again and again - (i know it).
so I see no trolling here on my side as i see no solution on yours.

And it will be fine to vote and see % of SC users on Linux. :)
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-04-05 15:50:24
[2016-04-05 17:07:45]
User35525 - Posts: 125
ganz
so I see no trolling here on my side as i see no solution on yours.

Ganz, I've enjoyed your previous posts, and have been trying to suggest solutions. :-) I started this thread and have suggested Linux, QT, wxWidgets, SFML, CEGUI, ImGui, MyGui, and nim in various posts. The new Nim language (has been around for 8 years) can compile to C, C++, Objective C, and JavaScript, so could help SC target mobile, web, and cloud in the future.

There are in-progress nim wrappers for wxWidgets and Vulkan:
https://github.com/Araq/wxnim
https://github.com/nimious/vulkan

I'd love to see SC rewritten in nim, and ACSIL use it. Nim is cross-platform, high-level, and efficient, and is a good replacement for C++. Until then, I'm learning enough to write my own private platform that uses nim, wxWidgets, and CSFML/SDL. Time will tell what happens. I'm enjoying SC for now, but am curious about the future. As my platform progresses, I'll just need a quality data feed. For now, I'm getting data+execution from SC.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-04-05 17:08:45
[2016-04-05 17:17:42]
ganz - Posts: 857
User35525
I've enjoyed your previous posts
I meant there was the discussion a years ago or so.

and have suggested Linux, QT, wxWidgets, SFML, CEGUI, ImGui, MyGui, and nim in various posts.
so let's begin from the starting point ...

what is the definite reason to suggest it?
have you got any side by side tests in terms of 2d and fonts rendering performance (Win vs $SUBJ)?

thnx.
[2016-04-05 18:15:06]
User35525 - Posts: 125
I started this thread because I was concerned about SC consuming future development by forking their Windows codebase to create an OS X version built with a completely different API. They're already busy enough to basically worry about two products.

If they adopt other OS platforms, as they've said they're planning to, I hope they pick a cross-platform API. I don't care how they do that (wxWidgets, roll their own wrappers, etc) but I hope they get it done, so they don't make unnecessary work for themselves. If they can target Linux, then I'll be even happier, as I can ditch Wine.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-04-05 18:15:46
[2016-04-05 19:13:04]
bjohnson777 (Brett Johnson) - Posts: 224
User35525 nicely covers the OS market share charts. I'll point out a few extra things.

Winxp still being so high in the list tends to point to a corporate usage that is unwilling to go to new win versions... probably for reasons already mentioned. That is not a positive for M$, especially after winxp was EOL'd and not getting any security updates. There seems to be a high resistance to win8 and win10 in the corporate world.

In big corporations, the average user/employee has no say about what computer and OS is being used. M$ still has a monopoly in that market and will skew the statistics.

Ganz using video game and PornHub articles in an argument is a kinda desperate.

Andreas reinforces the common argument of M$ quality concerns.

Making a linux (or other OS) version of SC shouldn't really be looked at as porting and maintaining a separate branch. It should be looked at as a global upgrade that adds multiple platforms as part of the upgrade.

Getting an SC version on one of the open unix platforms would be a major boost to reliability and perception. Many of the high dollar traders won't put up with M$ defecation and rot because it isn't cost effective for so much time to be wasted. Those traders may have the admin skills required to set up an open unix on their own. If not, they have the money to pay someone and take it as a business expense.

One reason I keep mentioning the BSD's is that they are used by pretty hard core unix admins. The BSD's ship much lighter weight than the consumer linux variants. They tend to be more secure than linux. Since Mac is a BSD variant, getting SC on BSD shouldn't be much extra work. Eventually I envision hosted headless versions of SC trading robots similar to what MetaQuotes does with their ExpertAdvisors. Having a BSD version of that clearly states: "We don't mess around. If you want a serious and professional option, it's right here."

Since QT gets bashed the most, let's use it in an example analysis. Yes, there are some reported bugs. The main questions should be:
* Are these bugs in the main core or peripherals?
* Are these bugs being actively fixed?
* What is the expected fix time?
* Are the peripheral bugs relevant to a charting package?
* Are there simple workarounds for the bugs related to a charting package?
* Since QT is open sourced, is it worth the SC dev's time to fix some of the bugs and submit patchs?
* Given all this, are the very wide cross platform gains enough to offset the time working around the bugs?

These questions then get asked of WX and the others User35525 listed. These questions can also be asked against the various win versions (excluding the last two).

Ganz:
"Xwindows system is outdated and is not fully controlled by devs"
Your pro M$ argument about this statement hardly holds water. This is just you whining again about not being able to play every video game under the sun on X11. The X11 system in general was designed for networking and multi-user environments on mainframes. While it has some quirks, it is hardly outdated. The general accelerated driver interfaces are more than enough for a charting package. The real bottleneck in a charting package isn't drawing lines on the screen, it's doing the calculations for all those lines in an efficient manner. Some indicators have very heavy calculations per bar. It's something I run up against constantly in my own tool kit DLL and my own scratch pad linux program.

Ganz:
"Xwindows system is outdated and is not fully controlled by devs"
News flash: THE SC DEV'S DO NOT CONTROL M$ OR APPLE! If there is a problem, they go to the back of the line like everyone else. Linux and BSD X11 is open sourced. If the SC dev's really wanted to, they could fork their own version and control it to their heart's delight. I don't see the need for this, though.

A quick add to something I said previously: Releasing your own commercial versions of win and osx without absurd licenses can get you thrown in jail. Nobody cares about releasing your own version/flavor/tweaks of the open unix's. A custom stripped down linux live CD that could also be used as an installer disc could have basic security settings and performance tweaks already in place. This alleviates the need for the end user to be admin level saavy.
[2016-04-06 17:42:53]
User754985 - Posts: 94
From a business perspective,there a two distinct SC user groups - each with its own needs.

For Algo traders - a "taken-for-granted" approach is a server in a DC,close to the broker,only running SC.
A WinServer in a minimal install running such an efficient software like SC is very stable. What "rot",driver issues,etc??
With correct combination of hosting provider/NIC/OS settings,CPU, latency can be improved, but probably running under linux can reduce it further (1-2ms?? i am not a big expert in linux). OS overhead difference would be negligible compared to other issues related to network congestion,provider,broker systems, etc..
Going with linux will also save appr.$25/month in WinServer rent costs (if renting a dedicated server).

Advanced algo traders would gladly max SC on Linux. But is there a real problem/need or would improvement be significant? I do not think so.

For the "charting package" users - I could hardly imagine that many people would have/add a dedicated linux "trading" computer at home side-by-side with their regular Windows/OSx' one (and plain switching en mass is ruled out).
Trading manually from charts from home is latency-independent by default(otherwise one would rent a server near broker) and any irregularities in operation can be immediately addressed.

SC Core users,those who see and appreciate the difference in reliability and efficiency(which comes from experience with other software) are usually knowledgeable enough and understand the priority and discipline to maintain their trading Windows computers lean and stable. That's the small "cost of doing business", like in any other profession.

So, stable SC under Win on Parallels/VMFusion/VirtualBox should be good enough for "discretionary trading Mac users".
If they are trading by now, they most probably already have this set-up - since no other popular trading platform is on Mac.
I really doubt SC would gain userbase being 'Mac-Native". It would be odd if having a Mac would drive choice of a trading platform for "semi-professional'.
It might make more business sense to just improve compatibility/stability under those boxes (if there are any issues).
[2016-04-07 01:56:04]
bjohnson777 (Brett Johnson) - Posts: 224
User754985: It's not really about getting that extra 1ms performance. This is a long thread, so I'll throw out a quick summary.

The linux/unix argument is about dumping bloat, long term stability, privacy, security, and getting away from poor M$ engineering that continually plagues a monopolistic company that has $10's of billions in cash laying around in the bank that refuses to address real world problems about its products. It's about switching to an OS platform that "just works" as advertised.

Privacy: Scroll up and see the altervista/win10 arguments. It also seems like just about any win program I install nowadays wants to hijack my browser settings and install spyware. It's not just about win10. Smart phones and tablets also have privacy issues, but SC isn't even close to being on those yet.

Security: Last night I rolled back my win7 install to a clean backup made 10 months ago. First thing I do is regular upgrades in preparation for a new clean backup. Win7 updates took 3 damn hours for 50 critical security updates (M$ quit naming these in the update window because they're just about all "take over your system" fixes) and 20 optional updates totaling about 88megs (hidden slowness jab intended). People who claim there's nothing wrong with M$ don't have enough experience to back up that statement. Yes, all OS's find periodic "take over your system" type bugs, but not at the M$ frequency. Yes, all OS's have some kind of viruses, but unix viruses are much rarer because of the designed in multi-user security model that dates back to the early 1970's (and is continually updated). The M$ security model hasn't changed much from the days of DOS.

Drivers: Since I rarely use my dual boot back into win7, I keep forgetting about the win7 graphics chip driver problems. It doesn't always clean up the screen when it is supposed to. Moving another window over the trash will repaint the affected areas. I do not have that problem with the generic built in linux driver. This is a Radeon, so it's not like it's an unknown chip from an unknown company. Repaint problems are usually sloppy driver implementations. Win is well known for sloppiness.

Stability: I can run my linux systems well over a year, up, running, without reboot, and without major problems with no stop in sight. I've done it several times with my home systems and rack servers. My best uptime was 807 days before being taken down for over due upgrades... The only real reason I'd reboot is for a kernel upgrade (I do a few custom compiles a year) and critical security updates that I want to make sure the old library got dumped.

I've yet to see any M$ install (including server) that can compete with that. Leave a regularly used win server up and running for that long and it will start cratering from run time “rot”.

I detail my various OS stances back in post 49:
https://www.sierrachart.com/SupportBoard.php?PostID=86478#P86478

If you're taking cues from ganz, don't. Nearly everything he has said about linux is misguided and wrong. I say that from real world professional experience gained the hard way from being down in the admin trenches... as do some others here. There is a HUGE difference between the M$ world and unix world.
[2016-04-07 03:56:49]
User754985 - Posts: 94
bjohnson777:

you are arguing about benefits of linux vs. windows, from the perspective of a puristic sys admin (and you are probably right).

My POV was about making a business decision for SC.
[2016-04-07 05:35:08]
Andreas - Posts: 299
User754985, please let SC do their own business decision and just bring up your user POV.
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2016-04-07 05:35:31
[2016-04-07 13:02:56]
ganz - Posts: 857
User754985

+1
[2016-04-07 20:00:59]
bjohnson777 (Brett Johnson) - Posts: 224
User754985: You tell me that I'm probably right but then I'm wrong? Your POV seems to be from hosted scalping bots. That's not what SC is. Most of the retail trading robots don't do this and that is a small trading market. Scalping bots are not what this conversation is about.

Let's simplify this with a car comparison.

M$: medium engine power, poor fuel economy, high pollution, bad design that's supposed to fit all, breaks down a lot, medium initial investment (often repeated) with high maintenance costs.

unix: high engine power, excellent fuel economy, low pollution, multiple designs for multiple needs, works out of the box, low initial investment (open source variants) with low maintenance costs.

Which would you rather pay for out of your own wallet? There's nothing puristic about it.
[2016-10-27 05:33:23]
WYFB - Posts: 8
Just to add some spice to the conversation!

Linux distro's are all moving to wayland from X11. Fedora and ubuntu already package it for their platforms.

Also,
Flatpak - the future of application distribution
flatpak.org/
The days of chasing multiple Linux distributions are over. Standalone apps for Linux are here!

Flatpak brings standalone apps to Linux - Fedora Magazine
https://fedoramagazine.org/introducing-flatpak/
Jun 21, 2016 - Flatpak brings standalone apps to Linux ..

'Flatpak' Is The Universal Linux Packaging Format That Puts 'Security ...
www.tomshardware.com/.../flatpack-universal-linux-packaging-form...
Tom's Hardware
Jun 22, 2016 - The recently released "flatpak" Linux packaging format promises to make security its main priority, while also making Linux apps as universal ...

In considering Linux in the near future, it would be wise to look at the near/medium term future of where these distro's are also heading.
[2016-11-15 21:53:13]
ganz - Posts: 857
WYFB

Linux distro's are all moving to wayland from X11.
... in 5 years or so :)

"flatpak" Linux packaging format promises to make security its main priority
will it work on Win10 as fast as an WinAPI/Net app? :)

The days of chasing multiple Linux distributions are over.
nope.

Flatpak - the future of application distribution
nope.

In considering Linux in the near future
so .... nope. :)
[2017-03-01 15:52:15]
ganz - Posts: 857
bjohnson777 (Brett Johnson)
If you're taking cues from ganz, don't. Nearly everything he has said about linux is misguided and wrong. I say that from real world professional experience gained the hard way from being down in the admin trenches... as do some others here. There is a HUGE difference between the M$ world and unix world.

bla ... bla ...bla

http://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=CVE-2017-2624-Xorg

lol :)
[2017-12-03 22:52:56]
BeardPower - Posts: 9
Hi,

I'm new to SC, so pardon me for reviving this thread.

First and foremost, regardless of the framework, you will use in the end, there will be dragons. If you want to avoid them nearly wholly, you have to roll your own UI engine, as many developers did for their (audio) software.

Are there some (useful) UI frameworks out there? Sure.
Are they perfect? No, and maybe there will never be one.

There are three possibilities:
- use the native frameworks on each platform
- use a software renderer and roll your own UI engine
- use a (hardware accelerated) UI engine, which is not perfect

I hope this little overview helps you in your decision making.

Let's start with the central questions:
- Do you want/need a C++ framework or is even a framework written in C (or a different language) okay?
- Do you want/need native widgets, near-native widgets or don't you care about that?
- Do you want/need to use an immediate mode or retained mode UI?
- Do you want/need theming support?
- Do you want/need to use vector graphics?
- Do you want/need to use scripting?
- Do you want/need to use different rendering backends and the latest and greatest hardware acceleration?

As I read through the forum, I have the impression, that the SC team does not care about a native widget feature. If they did, they would not be that resistant to incorporate the newest, fancy flat designs the major OSs are heading. :)

But, let's assume for now, that they do care.

The major frameworks used, as already mentioned in previous posts, are Qt and wxWidgets. Both are not only UI frameworks, but cross-platform development frameworks, which means, that they come with a lot of features, bells and whistles (aka bloat), which SC does not need or does not even want to use, as they already implemented their own custom containers, data structures and so on. So SC only needs a pure UI engine.
There are also multimedia frameworks like JUCE, SDL, SFML and Kore. Those handle graphics context creation, input handling, drawing primitives, asset rendering and much more. The difference is the number of platforms they support, features and the programming language. SDL is C, JUCE, SFML and Kore is C++, with Kore supporting the most backends (from Windows to Android to Game consoles; DX12, OpenGL (ES), Vulkan, Metal, you name it).
Last, but not least, there are pure UI libraries like FLTK and NanoSVG.

Qt:
- C++
- near-native widgets (they do try to emulate the native widgets as best as they can, but they will never look 1:1)
- retained mode
- theming support
- vector graphics support
- scripting support
- hardware acceleration based on various APIs
* does not use GTK+ on Linux
* licensed under different licenses (commercial and LGPL)

wxWidgets:
- C++
- native widgets, so they will look 1:1
- retained mode
- theming support
- no vector graphics support
- scripting support
- hardware acceleration based on OpenGL
* uses GTK+ on Linux
* licensed under the wxWindows Library Licence

A major issue with both is that they are very bloated and eat up a lot of resources, inflate the executable in size to a vast extent and, especially Qt adds some licensing headaches.
When using Open Source software, you always have to deal with licenses, which are maybe incompatible with your proprietary software, like the GPL.
E.g., Qt comes with two licenses: commercial and Open Source (LGPL). When using the latter, you need to statically link the Qt libs, which maybe is something you do not want, so you need to go with the
former, which adds significant costs for the developer.

SDL/SFML/Kore (there is also Kha, which is implemented in Haxe and using Kore for the native backends):
- C/C++
- all are just multimedia libraries, which use hardware acceleration where they can
- immediate mode
- not message/event based; only rendering the complete scene with x frames per second (think of a video game)
- hardware acceleration based on OpenGL and other APIs (Kore supports any graphics lib; DX11/DX12, OpenGL (ES), Metal, Vulkan, etc.)
- support any major platform and beyond
* no dependencies (fast, small and light)
* you have to use a third party UI engine/library or you draw the widgets yourself
* all are licensed under the zlib/png license
https://www.libsdl.org
https://www.sfml-dev.org
http://kha.tech / https://github.com/Kode/Kore

JUCE:
- C++
- non-native widgets, so they will never look 1:1
- retained mode
- theming support
- vector graphics support
- scripting support
- hardware acceleration based on OpenGL
* licensed under different licenses (commercial and GPL)
* it was originally developed for implementing music applications, so it also offers a great UI module
https://juce.com / https://juce.com/features

FLTK:
- C++
- non-native widgets, so they will never look 1:1
- retained mode
- no theming support
- no vector graphic support
- no scripting support
- hardware acceleration based on OpenGL
* no dependencies (fast, small and light; it only adds a few hundred kb to your executable)
* licensed under the LPGL with static linking clause
http://www.fltk.org

NanoVG:
- C
- non-native widgets, so they will never look 1:1
- immediate mode
- no theming support
- vector graphics support (as the lib is a vector graphics rendering library base on OpenGL)
- no scripting support
- hardware acceleration based on OpenGL (there are also ports to other graphics APIs)
* no dependencies (fast, small and light)
* you have to use a third party UI engine/library or you draw the widgets yourself
* licensed under the zlib license
https://github.com/memononen/nanovg

Alternatives, which are Open Source, have a permissive license and are tailored to be fast, have a small footprint and are doing just one thing: UI
Nevertheless, the Open Source licenses maybe are incompatible with your proprietary software!

There are also other UI libraries, which just call the native widget functions of the OS to draw them, but either they are missing out on some OS (Linux or macOS), are in flux, unstable or immature.

Some libs, which could also be interesting for you:
- libGUI (just calling the native functions of the OS) https://github.com/andlabs/libui
- EFL (used by Samsung for their TizenOS) https://www.enlightenment.org/about-efl

Godspeed to you for bringing a native SC to other platforms!
Date Time Of Last Edit: 2017-12-03 22:56:00
[2017-12-04 02:31:07]
Sierra Chart Engineering - Posts: 61831
Currently Sierra Chart uses MFC and the Windows API.

We do not plan to use QT or wxWidgets. These were decided against about two years ago. They simply have too much of a performance impact, and user interface change to be acceptable. Plus we would have to deal with all of the problems and bugs with them which is absolutely out of the question. Neither us or the users would have any tolerance for that.

We are in the process of developing our own classes that wrap the Windows SDK and remove MFC. Graphics will still use the Windows GDI wrapped in a single class.

All of this will be completed in 2018. Therefore, porting to another operating system will be relatively easy because it will just be a small set of functions and classes that have to be updated for the other OS.
Sierra Chart Support - Engineering Level

Your definitive source for support. Other responses are from users. If possible please keep your questions brief and to the point. Please be aware of support policy:
https://www.sierrachart.com/index.php?l=PostingInformation.php#GeneralInformation

If your question/request has been answered and you do not have anything further, then it is easiest for us if you do not reply again to say thank you.
[2017-12-19 20:00:59]
ganz - Posts: 857
fyi: https://blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2017/12/19/why-hasnt-the-year-of-the-linux-desktop-happened-yet/
[2017-12-20 21:43:14]
ganz - Posts: 857
fyi:

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/2402

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/12/ubuntu-corrupting-lenovo-laptop-bios

so NEVER use unstable flower distros and non-LTS kernels

the only stable solution is RHEL/CentOS and/or Debian Stable/oldSTable ones.
[2017-12-20 21:52:26]
ganz - Posts: 857
SC Support

test GTK3/4 and/or QT5 atop on Wayland/(kwin | mutter | weston) with no any X libs when available in terms of stability and performance

in case it fails just drop it forever
[2018-01-03 07:48:54]
ganz - Posts: 857
SC Support

Sierra Chart 64 Bit Version
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/02/intel_cpu_design_flaw/

it might be worth to check this new behavior, imho.
[2018-01-19 04:06:30]
ganz - Posts: 857
BeardPower

I'm using BM/Fusion and EditShare/Lightworks on the daily basis with no issues most of the time. They're using Qt5\GTK3 on Linux.
So looks like one should have a huge reason to develop an app for Linux only because the cross platforming performance penalty is non-acceptable.
[2018-02-08 22:04:52]
ganz - Posts: 857
fyi:

Because of low quality updates and support last months I've started to fully get rid of win server 2008r2 asap.

Another breaking point is OneCore and UWP policy so it is just impossible to consider any of ms windows os as a good choise in the mid term for trading and for any need to be manged tasks as well, imo

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